#21 [url]

Mar 19 17 4:14 AM

If they are women, then they are engaging in a behavior all other women engage in.  Which makes sense because they are women.  You are putting in an arbitrary difference for the express purpose of saying they are different.

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#23 [url]

Mar 20 17 6:02 PM

rubbercripple Wrote, "We are talking about natal females being aroused at the thought of being women or as some people are claiming they experience autogynephilia; this does not make sense to me as they are already women."
You obviously need to read more. Take as an example this article by Leon F. Seltzer, Ph.D., where he talks about autoeroticism as being completely normal.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201308/are-you-your-own-sex-object

Also, I agree with April, you seem to have an agenda by the way you frame your questions. I did comment on your film clip and I asked you some questions about it and where you were going in terms of an overall message for your complete documentary.

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#24 [url]

Mar 20 17 8:46 PM

Bobbi: Thanks for commenting on my film clip I will answer :) Thank you for this link, we can't apply autoerotic in the way you are suggesting because transwomen are not natal women and vice versa.

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#25 [url]

Mar 20 17 9:16 PM

You dismissed my example pretty quickly. Why? Why is it so hard to imagine that this very human sexual response described by Seltzer would not also apply to transgendered? Also simply stating that cis- and trans- women are different (insisting on using the term natal is a bit creepy imho) without citing any examples or reasoned argument to back up your statement also is a bit insulting.

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#26 [url]

Mar 20 17 9:40 PM

Bobbi: cis and transwomen are different, if they were not different people would not use the word "trans" or "cis" What is wrong with the word "natal" I'm not saying transpeople can't be autoerotic, I'm saying a woman being autoerotic is not the same as a transwoman being autoerotic. Please explain how you think it is the same.

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#27 [url]

Mar 21 17 3:00 AM

We have explained this to you over and over again, from different directions and using a large number of real life examples. Your response is always to ignore what we say. You don't even try to refute our arguments. You simply repeat the same banal statements:Men are men, women are women. Cis women are cis women, trans women are trans women.  These are what philosophers call tautologies. They tell us nothing. They teaches us nothing. They mean nothing.

You are either incapable of following more complex arguments about sex or gender, or you simply do not want to, having some kind of agenda we are not privy too. In either case I suggest that we end these "discussions" now. You are wasting our time. And since you clearly are not even willing to put yourself in our shoes, you are also wasting your own time.

If there is something about your own sexuality or gender identity that you would like to explore, tell us about it. We might even be able to help you understand yourself, but these discussions leads nowhere.

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#28 [url]

Mar 21 17 4:11 AM

In answer to your deflection rubbercripple I refer you back to the article by Seltzer. In that article Seltzer talks about cis-men and cis-women, who are arroused by themselves.
I cannot understand why this simple example of female autoeroticism does not give you pause to consider the similarities of human sexuality.
Discussing such similarities is very important to the Transgendered because we want to find acceptance in society. Finding articles from researchers that suggest we are not so different is comforting.

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#29 [url]

Mar 21 17 8:38 AM

Rubbercripple, As Bobbi and Jack have already said, you are not debating or discussing with us in any meaningful way.You are not absorbing our arguments and supporting evidence and trying to refute them. You simply ignore them and repeat the same things over and over as mantras. That sounds more like religious dogma than any attempt to understand the truth. We get enough of that from the transphobics that regularly impose on our space. There is a whole another dimension here that eclipses the auto eroticism component.Until you are willing to acknowledge that, there is no basis for discussion and debate here.

Last Edited By: April Mar 21 17 8:40 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#31 [url]

May 7 17 12:11 AM

This is simple slut shaming. I have known many cis women who are burlesque dancers, sex workers, strippers and all the rest, virtually all of them with other options they could (or even did ) follow. And a heck of a lot of them (especially the burlesque dancers) enjoy it...a lot.

Women are sexy sensual beings, living in a wold that ether suppresses that and does not accept it or commercially hypersexualises them in a totally artificial manner. They have to endlessly walk a line where they are supposed to be available all the time for admiration or delivering sex or being seen as sluts.
And it drives them nuts where their real innate sexuality is ignored or twisted.

Where they can be accepted as enjoying being admired and arousing others (and that is buzz let me tell you) but when they want and in they way they want. Where they can express their sexual wants clearly and not be judged for that negatively. Where they can relax and be themselves.

A one ex partner said to me (a very strong successful intelligent woman) 'you let me be myself', because a part of her, long ignored and put down, was a very sexual and sensual person.

Before transition I had lots of sexual fantasies about being a woman and having all sort of sex with others (vanilla through to seriously kinky) , I could write a book about them. And most were tame compared to the fantasies some cis women told me they had....

So this is slut shaming of cis or trans women and is all rubbish.

Blanchard with his personal twisted sexuality and all those others ..all men no less. who have no idea about sex, fantasies and sexuality whatsoever, obsessed as they are (for various reasons) with only PiV sex for reproduction being the 'correct' sex to have and that old trope 'men want sex women don't but they want babies' nonsense. ....Might as well listen to the Catholic Church which they differ so very little from..

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#32 [url]

May 7 17 12:22 AM

This has to be said.

I am so fed up with, always part or no timers, obsessing about sex...who cares what your sexual fantasies are? I don't one little bit. No one does. No one cares. Vast numbers of males and females have (even just by examining analyses of porn watching) all sorts of fantasies..so what? If it not about kids or animals (those who cannot consent) , who cares one little bit.

And I am one of the ones who has long fought for inclusion of part timers …and note I invented the term ‘part timer’ to get away for that stigmatising term ‘crossdresser’ long associated with ‘perverts’ and ‘men in dresses’.. because I know that many are working their way through their gender issues, just as I did.

I do care when they sign up to this AGP crap used to stigmatise, vilify and attack trans women and used to call for our elimination ...those transitioned ones like me.

They can go away and hide in their male mode when things get bad ..I can't.... so you are directly harming me and all the others like me ..so stop it.
Go away and work out your gender issues, get some WPATH certified counselling if you need .. and stop harming trans women (and especially trans kids) ...because that is what is happening.

And I am now at the point where if some part timer (or more commonly a no timer) goes on about this I automatically classify them like a TEFF ...an enemy of trans women and trans kids.

Me and all the other trans women’s tolerance has ended over this and let me tell you, increasingly part timers (and no timers) are being seen by trans activists as enemies who, at best, get in the road of our fight for acceptance and rights and at worst are outright enemies (some in this forum are like that) no different to TERFs and the religious right.

You should hear what Brynn Tannehill says about US ‘crossdressers’ and it is not nice at all. If you are pissing someone as nice and accepting as that off ..you are doing something very wrong.

I am personally involved with and know the parents of many trans kids...and let me tell you ...they matter 100% more to me than any part or no timer does with their 'who cares' sexual hang ups and obsessions.

So get onboard or get out of the way or get trampled, because our backs are to the wall and we have no tolerance left. You choose the enemy's side ..you are an enemy.

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#33 [url]

May 7 17 1:52 PM

Hi Lisa

Your first post above (#32) I think you'll find a lot of people here agree with - Of course all women should find their own sexuality and sensuality, and it most definitely not be defined by others. The way society in the West wants women to be sexual objects for men... and nuns.... all at the same time, is absolutely wrong. I agree and I bet the majority on this site do too

On your second post you do seem, I must respectfully say, to have forgotten where you are posting. You are angry, I can tell, but you seem to have focused your pain in the wrong direction.

To my mind there is a spectrum...

Most of the population have never given any serious thought to being anything other than the gender they were assigned at birth
Some – and there is no way of knowing how many – play with the idea in their heads sometimes, either as a gentle fancy, a thought experiment, which many OR MAY NOT develop into a sexual fantasy.
Neither of these groups take the trouble to look up groups like this on the internet.

The rest of the population – quite a small minority – accept they have some kind of trans feeling.
Some of these people could well be happier if they did transition, but for whatever reason decide they don’t need to, or won’t for some personal reason. Those reasons can be quite complex and vary from person to person. Some get some release by dressing up (I don’t) , some by consistently thinking of the idea of transitioning, or what life would be like if they did.
Some of this group do eventually transition. Many don’t
Then we get to the people for whom life is intolerable if they don’t.
But these two groups are not in opposition to each other, there is scope for mutual support.

Very very very few people on these boards sign up to AGP or Blanchard. If you read these boards you’ll know when the subject of AGP comes up there are 9 posts decrying the theory to 1 that supports it (and they are usually by 1 or 2 specific individuals)
So you have defined your ‘enemy’ as no timers and ‘part timers’ who can ‘hide away as men when they want to…

I accept that I can go out and people don’t recognise me as a person with any kind of gender issue; I accept that’s an advantage but its not one I exactly revel in.. I still have trans thoughts running through my head, and for people further along the spectrum than me, that causes pain, not relief or escape.
You write “Go away and work out your gender issues”… well this is a forum that has been set up for just that sort of working out. Come out and slamming people, and telling them to ‘go away’ from the forum that has been set up to help them is not in the slightest bit helpful.

Saying that people who have trans issues but choose that their own personal path does not lie down the path of transition are as much an enemy as the religious right and TERFS is, frankly, offensive. Personally I support transitioners and have made some on line friendships with many. The fact that I have less intense versions of the feelings that they have makes me .. .well not the same but certainly an ally…. And small minorities need allies from other groups, because no battle for civil rights or acceptance can ever be one by small groups fighting on their own.

In the past I have chatted to transitiners who have told me that I should either transition or I’m a fraud. Jack has given me a space where I can be accepted for the feelings I have…. I extend that acceptance to you, for your feelings.
I had not heard of Brynn Tannehill before reading your post. I’ve heard of quite a few trans activists (In the UK I have much respect for Paris Lees) and I’ve just looked up Ms Tannehill and I’m sure she is great… but if she groups all crossdressers together and assigned attitudes to them, then criticises them all for those attitudes (probably held by a few) then don’t expect us to be so impressed by that.
Everyone has a right to choose their path so long as they don’t hurt anyone else… I’m probably what you’d call a ‘no timer’ because I have trans feelings that have never been quite strong enough to change my own life, but have given me an empathy for trans people that I might not have had otherwise. (though might have since I also support gay rights despite not being gay)
Identify me as an ‘enemy if you wish’ though I accept no such label. As transitioner you have my respect, more so as a supporter of other transitioner.

Keep well

Pip

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#34 [url]

May 7 17 3:04 PM

@Pip


I don't think Lisa is referring to ALL Part-times/No-timers with the comments about being an enemy.  I think her comments in post #33 are two fold, first that she doesn't care about our fantasies anymore than anyone else's because they are complete fine and normal (which is very supportive if you think about it.  Her other point is specifically targeted toward Blanchard supporters and in particular Blanchard supporters who are part-timers/no-timers.  Note what I underlined and bolded below when she said,

I do care when they sign up to this AGP crap used to stigmatise, vilify and attack trans women and used to call for our elimination ...those transitioned ones like me. 

I could be wrong, but I think that is the context of her post.  Please also note that she said,

And I am now at the point where if some part timer (or more commonly a no timer) goes on about this I automatically classify them like a TEFF ...an enemy of trans women and trans kids. 

I believe she is again referring to part/no-timers who are promoting the BBL theory and saying that pro-BBL theory part/no timers are giving all part/no timers a bad rep.  That is what she means by "siding with the enemy."  

I really don't think she is referring to those of us who reject the Blanchard Baily Lawerence theory and are fighting against it.  

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#35 [url]

May 7 17 3:11 PM

Thanks for the excellent reply, Pip. It saves me from having to write a long rebuttal. I agree with every point you make. I'd like to also say that Lisa seems to have forgotten what forum she's on and she should expect little to no support here. We get a lot of transsexuals who pass through here on their way to figuring themselves out but then quickly move on to TS sites when they realize the specialized focus of crossdreamers and that crossdreaming is just a small aspect of being transsexual. Jack and others here have been big supporters of all transgendered causes and I hope have moved the transgendered movement forward.

Lisa, we've seen the tone you're using here before on this site. Those people  have been either transsexual separatetists or TERFs. I didn't get that idea from earlier posts and appreciated the "teaching" tone of them. A lot of people here are already well schooled in transgender topics but it's always nice to have someone willing to teach others.

Also, you said that you came up with the terms "half timer" and "no timer" as alteratives to the derogatory term crossdresser.  I never considered crossdresser derogatory. But you then turn around and use both of your terms in a derogatory manner. I'm surprised that Jack has included the term "half timer" in his transgendered dictionary. They seem kind of degrading.

 

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

Last Edited By: Lindsay May 7 17 3:13 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#36 [url]

May 7 17 3:20 PM

I'm hoping that Lisa was mostly talking about part-timers and no-timers who are obsessed with the sex lives of trans people and who stigmatize them for having the sexual desires and interests they do, and that she didn't mean to make every part-timer or no-timer her enemy.

I'm hoping that kind of divisiveness isn't threatening our community. As a "part timer" myself, I'd like to think that although I haven't and don't plan to transition, I can be understanding, empathetic, and supportive of those who have made that decision, moreso than those who have no transgender feelings at all. So I agree with Pip when she says Lisa is free to identity as an enemy whoever she chooses, but I won't accept the label.

I certainly agree & sympathize with Lisa's objection to being classified as some kind of pervert, and I would also like to have my privacy (and modesty!) to be respected. Julia Serano has expressed my viewpoint quite well, I think, in passages where she talks about the impertinence of people who think it's appropriate to ask a trans person they barely know whether they've had "the operation". If you're not making a sexual overture, it's none of your damned business!

(Added later: it looks like Lost and Lindsay were typing their replies the same time I was typing mine.  So I hadn't seen Lost's, but I am pleased to see that we're pretty much on the same page.  I also share Lindsay's concerns about transsexual "separatists", which is a trend I was unaware of before reading this thread.)

Last Edited By: Kippi May 7 17 3:32 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#37 [url]

May 7 17 4:26 PM

Lindsay wrote:
Also, you said that you came up with the terms "half timer" and "no timer" as alteratives to the derogatory term crossdresser.  I never considered crossdresser derogatory. But you then turn around and use both of your terms in a derogatory manner. I'm surprised that Jack has included the term "half timer" in his transgendered dictionary. They seem kind of degrading.
I think this one of those things that depends on one's experiences.  Kinda like the word "Queer."  To many older LGBTQ people this word was purely an insult and they can't see it as anything else.  Younger LGBTQ people, on the other hand, have kind of reclaimed the word as has academia.  Thus, some people see queer as a slur, and others as an accurate discriptor.

I can see how some could see crossdresser as a smear of sorts, and others not.
Kippi wrote:
(Added later: it looks like Lost and Lindsay were typing their replies the same time I was typing mine.  So I hadn't seen Lost's, but I am pleased to see that we're pretty much on the same page.  I also share Lindsay's concerns about transsexual "separatists", which is a trend I was unaware of before reading this thread.)

When people are passionate, sometimes we are not as careful with our wording as we could be and are prone to over-generalizing.  I believe this often the cause of intra-factional conflict.  A slight misunderstanding can often result in massive flame wars that leaves people who should be allies at each others throats from then on out.

When I read LisaM's post I was a bit dismayed by her over-generalizing us non-full timers (last I checked Anne Lawerence was full timer and still an advocate of the disproven BBL hypothesis), but I didn't read it as an attack on me or those like me.  Then I saw Pip's post and reread the post and I could see her point of view too.

I have found many of LisaM's posts in the past helpful (especially the one on atypical depressions) as I have of Pip (who I consider one of my dearest friends on this forum.)  I just don't want a misunderstanding to cause a fight.  That said, Pip's post was incredibly awesome and so polite that I doubt it would cause any problems.  

But, just in case, I thought I should point out how I interpretted LisaM's post.

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#38 [url]

May 8 17 11:29 PM

 I'm surprised that Jack has included the term "half timer" in his transgendered dictionary. They seem kind of degrading.


First of all: I include all kinds of words in the dictionary over at Crossdreamers blog. It is to be used for reference. 

As for part timer. To what extent this term is offensive is a matter of intepretation. I interpreted to refer to gender expression, in the sense crossdressing is a gender expression. This male to female transgender person is expressing their target gender from time to time, while presenting as their assigned gender at other times. That's ok with me, as it does not say anything about the "value" or "intensity" of this persons feelings or identity. A part timer can be just as much a woman as a full timer. 

If part timer refers to this persons identity, however, or the "quality of their transness", that would be offensive, but I do not think this is what Lisa meant.
 

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#39 [url]

May 9 17 2:34 AM

Hi Jack,

From the tone of Lisa's attract on us I get the feeling that she has created 3 classes of transness. Those three classes do not seem to be equal. She seems to feel that full timers are some how better than the other two. It seems to me that in her mind part timers and no timers are 2nd class citizens. Until she can rationalize that post I don't see how else to interpret it.

Also, I've never heard anyone use those terms except Lisa. My opinion is that she got you to add it hoping to get it into general usage.

edit: After sleeping on this for a few hours I have some more comments. First Lisa didn't coin this term. Do a google search on transgender and "part timer" and you get hits going back to the dawn of the internet. It mostly seems to be related to crossdressing. 

I asked my wife what she thinks "part timer" means and her first response was substitute teacher and her second was a temporary employee. Part timer is a generic English modifier denoting  someone who doesn't do a particular thing all the time.

I always thought that transvestite was the derogatory term that was replaced with the more acceptable crossdresser.

Finally, it seems to me that the gist of her comment was that non transitioners aren't as important as transitioners. Just because we're not full timers in her mind doesn't mean we're not dysphoric all the time. It doesn't mean that we didn't have to make the same hard choices she had to make, we just made different ones. I still think about transitioning all the time and wonder how things would be different. But I don't regret that I didn't. But please don't treat me like a second class citizen. 

I think every one here is a supporter of TG/TS rights and deserves respect for that. 

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

Last Edited By: Lindsay May 9 17 7:37 PM. Edited 4 times.

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#40 [url]

May 9 17 9:20 AM

When I read #33 a few days ago, I knew I would probably comment, but I needed some time to digest it all. Lisa is clearly frustrated here, and possibly even angry. But given this thread up to that point, I’m struggling to understand the specific context of that frustration, or to whom the anger is specifically directed.

We are a forum that sits at the crossroads of gender identity and human sexuality. Much of the trans’ world treats the discussion of sex as highly politically incorrect in the larger sea of transgender issues. We have become valuable refuge from that. If we start treating sexuality as a taboo, we would be changing the very basis of our mission.

Many people struggle to understand their trans issues against the backdrop of their sexuality. This often causes them to deny their gender dysphoria and repress it. Given that, I actually get why somebody might initially find Blanchard’s theory appealing when reading about it for the first time. In him, they have finally found somebody who is talking about sexuality and trans identity issues in the same sentence.

It is only after further study and gained knowledge does one come to realize that the theory is complete bunk. But from there it is possible to build a new understanding that we can be both trans and human, which is to say we can be both trans and sexual creatures. Among the regulars who post here, I don’t know how many really embrace Blanchard’s theory, but I do know it is really a pretty tiny minority, regardless if they are "no timers", "part timers", or "full timers".

Last Edited By: April May 9 17 9:25 AM. Edited 1 time.

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