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Dec 13 16 11:04 PM

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Hi there!
I was wondering WHY there is nothing like the crossdreamer/trans community at least a bit comparable to the LGB community, which woud help people like us find friends, love and socialize and make us feel like we're not alone in this (because we're not, there's plenty of us actually)... In my opinion, the main barrier is the fact that most of us are IN the closet and do not plan to come out any time soon. Which is understandable. But come on, there's been such progress in the LGB community, and at least in most western countries they can finally live out and proud - and this fact itself actually makes a difference in the world.
And because of that, I find it very important to ask you all this question: 
WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU COME OUT PUBLICALLY AND/OR FEEL COMFORTABLE TO DO SO?
Would it be a famous person coming out? A movie/music/book/any other form of art related to our topic making it to the mainstream?
Please, just think about it. What needs to be done to make people like us live out and proud?

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that.
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#1 [url]

Dec 14 16 5:54 AM

Having a famous person come out, someone with legitimacy would help me, definitely. ( I am out to my wife, but not to friends and colleagues.)

The truth is, of course, that there are quite a few crossdreamers who have "come out", but they are either transsexual persons who have transitioned (Laverne Cox) or they are crossdressers (like Eddie Izzard) or they are drag queens/kings  (RuPaul).

They do not talk much about the crossdreaming part of their lives. Moreover, I find it hard to present myself as either. I do not crossdress, have never been on a stage and has not transitioned. I must admit that the idea of presenting myself as a "non-transitioning trans woman" is not that tempting, even if that would -- fundamentally -- be telling the truth.

So I guess the answer would be if one celebrity went out and announced without shame, that he or she was a crossdreamer.

The irony is, that we used to have quite a few celebrities that might fit this label and who did not shy away from the sexual side: David Bowie, Prince, Freddie Mercury, Annie Lennox, Pete Burns, and so on and so forth, but ironically the successful attempts of making both gay and trans people palatable to the straight-cis middle classes has caused artist to leave that part of their lives out of their story telling.

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#2 [url]

Dec 14 16 7:59 AM

The part of the problem is, in my opinion, that a "crossdreamer" is not known as a label enough.
There's way too many words to describe it: non-binary, demi-boy/girl, genderfluid, genderqueer...
I also used to think about myself as non-binary but since I started accepting myself, I feel more and more on the masculine side. My personality definitely includes some feminine aspects, but "the base" is a guy.

I think that Ruby Rose coming out helped me a lot. I can relate to her story a lot. But! She is into women only, she has it easier in a sense that there is more diversity in lesbian and gay world as far as the distribution of gender roles in a relationship is considered. And many people don't realize that such gender variance can be found in people who are not perceived as lesbian/gay from the outside (relative to their biological sex).
But again, do people realize that this is not just about dressing up a certain way?

Like, for example I'm (probably) more into men (though a very specific type of them), but I can't even imagine dating a guy who sees me as a female, expects me to feel like one, expects me to like things that women like... Because it makes me highly uncomfortable. To make a comparison: many trans women before coming out marry and have kids. It's different for a FtM trans person. Throughout their life, they usually become even more lonely than MtFs, they never marry, never have kids (I've also read about this in a study by Czech sexuologist whose specialisation is transsexuality). Like, I can tell you, a marriage to a man and motherhood is something I've always perceived as something I don't want to experience (since I was very very young), because it was/is extremely overwhelming for me. The way cis men treat women is, like... another man couldn't stand it at all. But it seems that women genereally like that (which is something I  don't understand at all). Honestly, if I was into women, I think it would be so much easier for me. But I'm sure such a topic was discussed million times on the forum.

Also, many people think that if you're not transitioning medically (or you do but only to a certain extent), you're not really trans and you have it easier than transitioning trans people. Which is not true, as I described above and as many of you know.

I think that this is a topic that should be seriously adressed by someone with a certain influence.
It seems to me that many people think that for many of us who are perceived as straight, it is just a kind of fun, just some kind of funky way of dressing up. And it is partly because of the fact that androgynous famous people like Prince, Michael Jackson, Bill Kaulitz, Annie Lennox etc. never adressed that. They made it seem just like an artistic expression, an experiment. And Eddie Izzard, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that most people sees his crossdressing just as a part of his comedian persona. 
But I know that for me, and I believe that for many of you too, it is not just art or fashion.  It is my truth, my whole life, my real self. 

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#4 [url]

Dec 14 16 12:08 PM

I would only be able to come "out" publicly if I were financially secure enough that I would not fear losing my livelihood and my business. I have a personal training business and I am a very masculine, in shape guy in my work environment. My clients would have a very tough time with me being "out".
I also have to think about the impact that being "out" might have on my 5 year old daughter. She is on the autism spectrum and her life is tough enough without me further complicating it for her.

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#5 [url]

Dec 14 16 2:01 PM

Frankly, I can't understand why anybody would want to come out if their crossdreaming was restricted to the privacy of their own minds. For transitioners and public crossdressors it's very different matter. Their own public behavior outs them, or at least risks the possibility of outing them if they are compartmentalizing their lives.

But the beauty of crossdreaming, and to some extent private crossdressing, lies in the fact that they are fairly risk free behaviors. The only risk might come from a spouse who inadvertently stumbles upon your browsing history.

I believe one of the issues that may categorize us here is a divide between crossdreamers who see crossdreaming as a thing onto itself, in which case they probably have little reason to out themselves; and people who are probably transsexuals who use crossdreaming as a risk free proxy to transition, in which case they are probably rather adverse to being out. I believe I was in the second category for a number of years.

Last Edited By: April Dec 14 16 2:08 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#6 [url]

Dec 14 16 3:34 PM

April wrote:
Frankly, I can't understand why anybody would want to come out if their crossdreaming was restricted to the privacy of their own minds.

But the beauty of crossdreaming, and to some extent private crossdressing, lies in the fact that they are fairly risk free behaviors. The only risk might come from a spouse who inadvertently stumbles upon your browsing history.


 

I agree with this. I see no reason to "come out." Dreams are what they are. Just like a person can quietly dream of being a movie star, sports star, or a rock star, why can't they dream of being the opposite sex? Dreams are a very personal thing and the rest of the world is on a need-to-know basis.

I can see instances where it can be beneficial to come out to another individual, a spouse for example, but that is very different from coming out publically. The only instance I could see is if you just felt so passionate about it, you felt compelled to come out. 

Last Edited By: Josie Dec 14 16 3:37 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#7 [url]

Dec 14 16 9:34 PM

Josie wrote:

April wrote:
Frankly, I can't understand why anybody would want to come out if their crossdreaming was restricted to the privacy of their own minds.

But the beauty of crossdreaming, and to some extent private crossdressing, lies in the fact that they are fairly risk free behaviors. The only risk might come from a spouse who inadvertently stumbles upon your browsing history.



 

I agree with this. I see no reason to "come out." Dreams are what they are. Just like a person can quietly dream of being a movie star, sports star, or a rock star, why can't they dream of being the opposite sex? Dreams are a very personal thing and the rest of the world is on a need-to-know basis.

I can see instances where it can be beneficial to come out to another individual, a spouse for example, but that is very different from coming out publically. The only instance I could see is if you just felt so passionate about it, you felt compelled to come out. 


These two comments tell me that the situation is much harder for the FtMs than the MtFs. For the FtMs there are plenty reasons to come out. Like, for example, looking for partner - we can't date a cis man, while you can "easily" date a cis woman and come out to her after some time when you are already in a relationship.
 

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#8 [url]

Dec 14 16 9:38 PM

Darcy Anne wrote:
I would only be able to come "out" publicly if I were financially secure enough that I would not fear losing my livelihood and my business. I have a personal training business and I am a very masculine, in shape guy in my work environment. My clients would have a very tough time with me being "out".
I also have to think about the impact that being "out" might have on my 5 year old daughter. She is on the autism spectrum and her life is tough enough without me further complicating it for her.

That's understandable. The situation in out society is a barrier. But what could possibly change it, even if it took years?

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#9 [url]

Dec 14 16 11:10 PM

AmaltheaBoi wrote:

Josie wrote:

April wrote:
Frankly, I can't understand why anybody would want to come out if their crossdreaming was restricted to the privacy of their own minds.

But the beauty of crossdreaming, and to some extent private crossdressing, lies in the fact that they are fairly risk free behaviors. The only risk might come from a spouse who inadvertently stumbles upon your browsing history.

 

I agree with this. I see no reason to "come out." Dreams are what they are. Just like a person can quietly dream of being a movie star, sports star, or a rock star, why can't they dream of being the opposite sex? Dreams are a very personal thing and the rest of the world is on a need-to-know basis.

I can see instances where it can be beneficial to come out to another individual, a spouse for example, but that is very different from coming out publically. The only instance I could see is if you just felt so passionate about it, you felt compelled to come out. 


These two comments tell me that the situation is much harder for the FtMs than the MtFs. For the FtMs there are plenty reasons to come out. Like, for example, looking for partner - we can't date a cis man, while you can "easily" date a cis woman and come out to her after some time when you are already in a relationship.
 

Fair enough. It's safe to say that I know very little about what it's like to be a FtM crossdreamer. It's good to have members here with a variety of backgrounds and experiences to bring a vareity of points of view. 

Last Edited By: Josie Dec 14 16 11:12 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#10 [url]

Dec 17 16 10:55 AM

jackmolay wrote:
I must admit that the idea of presenting myself as a "non-transitioning trans woman" is not that tempting, even if that would -- fundamentally -- be telling the truth.


Why do you have to come out publicly? It's just something that you need to accept. Your wife knows and the online community knows , that's probably all that's important.  If you've accepted that you're not going to transition it's no one else's business.

Also, crossdreaming is just one of many symptoms that transgendered people have. There is no reason for us to stress it above the others. It's fine to have a site that explores it, but to expect any transgendered people to public emphasize their crossdreaming is ludicrous.

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

Last Edited By: Lindsay Dec 17 16 11:02 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#11 [url]

Dec 19 16 2:20 AM

Why do you have to come out publicly? It's just something that you need to accept. Your wife knows and the online community knows , that's probably all that's important.  If you've accepted that you're not going to transition it's no one else's business.


This is obviously correct, but I guess that the original question implied that if more crossdreamers came out into the open, that would destigmatize crossdreaming as a concept, and reduce the levels of shame and anguish found in our circles.

This was obviously what happened to the gay and lesbian community. As more and more came out of the closet, it became so much harder for the homophobes to demonize them. Reasonable people saw that gay and lesbians were just people, like the rest of us.

Being open about your crossdreaming (even if you do not plan to transtion) would also help others to find someone "compatible" to love.

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#12 [url]

Dec 22 16 2:07 AM

jackmolay wrote:

Why do you have to come out publicly? It's just something that you need to accept. Your wife knows and the online community knows , that's probably all that's important.  If you've accepted that you're not going to transition it's no one else's business.


This is obviously correct, but I guess that the original question implied that if more crossdreamers came out into the open, that would destigmatize crossdreaming as a concept, and reduce the levels of shame and anguish found in our circles.

This was obviously what happened to the gay and lesbian community. As more and more came out of the closet, it became so much harder for the homophobes to demonize them. Reasonable people saw that gay and lesbians were just people, like the rest of us.

Being open about your crossdreaming (even if you do not plan to transtion) would also help others to find someone "compatible" to love.

EXACTLY.
​Thank you for that!

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#13 [url]

Dec 23 16 1:40 AM

I think, mostly i can relate to April words, about two groups. First group really in most of the cased don't eant public coming out. They feel comfortably in their private crossdreaming or crossdressing in close circle.Second group problems - kind of problems of all other transcommunity.
Also. don't forget about one of the most hidden tribes - crossdrimers whos don't feels their female identities and their crossdriming and crossdresiing only for sexual pleasure (transvestic fetisishm...really don't like this term) - they usually to much secreted about this issues, public coming out - too much shamefull for them.

In mu own case, i make public coming out, only if i will sure, my financial position after that did not became worst.

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#14 [url]

Jan 1 17 10:25 PM

We need a well known person who cross dreams who is neither a transexual nor a cross dresser who will speak exclusively about cross dreaming. Once it's on the map of public knowledge, then it's much easier to come out and say, "Hey, in my dreams and imagination, sometimes I'm a dude."

Indigo Myst

We are such stuff as dreams are made on; and our little life is rounded with a sleep. (Shakespeare, The Tempest)

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#15 [url]

Feb 25 17 9:18 PM

AmaltheaBoi wrote:

I think that this is a topic that should be seriously adressed by someone with a certain influence.
It seems to me that many people think that for many of us who are perceived as straight, it is just a kind of fun, just some kind of funky way of dressing up. And it is partly because of the fact that androgynous famous people like Prince, Michael Jackson, Bill Kaulitz, Annie Lennox etc. never adressed that. They made it seem just like an artistic expression, an experiment. And Eddie Izzard, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that most people sees his crossdressing just as a part of his comedian persona. 
But I know that for me, and I believe that for many of you too, it is not just art or fashion.  It is my truth, my whole life, my real self. 

 
I've always been content with myself.  It's not a matter of using labels or being part of a community, in my opinion.  I don't even crossdress.  When I think that I am the "other gender," there's an exhileration to imagine flying over lands in a supersonic jet or to flag down a jet onto my air craft carrier.  It's not even about an erotic motivation as far as I'm concerned. The psychological benefit to believing that I am another is enough for me.  The experience would not be the same with another person.  It is an individual experience.  It is not about public misunderstanding.  I'm just saying that there would not be a need for others to understand.  Besides, much of the ... the.....people in the letter community (that community with plenty of colors on a flag) ....are more concerned about politics than understanding the biology and psychology of identity variation.  

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#16 [url]

Mar 1 17 1:48 PM

How about -- ???

Both parents are dead. My mother saw me pierce my ears (six holes), and grow my hair to shoulders (now way past shoulders) . . .

I have a sister and a nephew. Nephew is a rock-musician, wore denim work-kilts for a while, but it wasn't a gender thing. Sis is OK with my presentation, but won't discuss it. "That's for you and your counselor."

Lately I'm pretty assertive about gender presentation -- but still obviously "cis-M" if nonetheless pretty fluid / non-binary.

My medical staff at the VA recognizes me as "trans" -- has seen my underwear, etc, etc. It's validating not to need to explain nor hide.

What made it "safe" for me to step out of the closet was figuring out how to dress appropriately, how to dress without sending confusing gender presentation cues. I needed to learn how to transition without being the "man in a dress."

We have that figured out.

Allison Wunderland's Transcend Dance

http://allisontranscend.blogspot.com/

Last Edited By: AllisonWunderland Mar 1 17 1:50 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#17 [url]

Mar 13 17 3:33 PM

Gender stereotyping is heavily influenced by television and magazine images, social expectations
are that we live in a binary world where you are on this or that side of the gender fence.
Being a man in a dress is not looked on kindly, even just painting my nails causes derision, snickering and people react as if i offended them.
Patriarchy does not allow men to present as anything outside rigid binary fashion.
As for the famous musicians, how did that work out for david bowie, and eddie, izard, i recall seeing an american tv interview that was so embarrassing, bowie felt shame, he was contrite, did not own his femme side, and indeed it maybe it was more publicists and his first wife who introduced femme outfits to stir up publicity...
Eddie izzard quit the queer outfits pretty quickly too and now wants to be seen as a super athlete..To me it makes clear that the culture war against dyonisian extasy is burying any original expression, yes, some geniouses like prince pulled it off, but for the rest of us, unless you go all the way with the old same binary total femme, smooth skin, make up, killer clothes, you are seen as a freak, and for myself i have a hard time accepting a man in a dress..we are not pretty to look at, i am afraid, better keep it indoors or just play with gender as theatre, like queens do, ru paul keeps his tv thing going and lots of people enjoy it, myself included, but those are damn good actresses, with premium make up artistry..for the rest of us who cannot (i am allergic to eye make up) or don't want to bother with all the artwork, of illusion, artifice, we are SOL.

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#18 [url]

Mar 13 17 3:55 PM

I think there would need to be some massive, global shift in the way we view sexuality and gender for me to want to disclose my crossdreaming. Basically, a utopia free from judgement. People could dress however they want, choose to present themselves however they want, and be accepted.

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#19 [url]

Mar 13 17 9:35 PM

For me, I spent decades ashamed of myself and my crossdreaming and crossdressing. Now, though, I'm understanding that I am simply transgender, valid, and just another normal person if somewhat rare. All my life I hid in plain sight, terrified to death (literally) that I'd be discovered. But now I don't care! I've come out to over twenty friends and family in the last few months. All have expressed sincere love and acceptance, but who knows what they say behind my back. Here again, I don't care! What a relief that is.

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#20 [url]

Mar 17 17 11:40 PM

I was drunk and got it interrogated out of me like five years ago by my mom, she told everyone of course. She's getting more and more cool with it. Her first response was to go in the closet and said that that's where Jesus is now, and all of the perverts are out. She was in there for two days, every time I was around. I'm not too worried about her being crueler behind my back than to my face. My employers knows too, either from online searches, or hearsay. He has only made a couple vague comments.

Had to tell my dad before he came to stay with me, because I couldn't promise that I wouldn't pursue it without much warning.

Just before Christmas my (15 next month) little sister moved in with me. She's exactly like me, she's been obsessing about the yaoi for the last few years. When she came here she had hair down to her elbows that she cut all off short, and dyed a red bit into the front. She started to dress in dudes cloths, and hints around about it all the time. I try to be supportive... I just hope that it was me that somehow caused this, and otherwise don't really know what to think.

Anyway, I am "out" to everyone that knows me.

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