#21 [url]

May 29 17 3:31 PM

I don't really know many actual girls ;-), but I do know that one of the girls who briefly worked for the same business I do was really really good at maths, as in getting a first in Maths from Cambridge good, she did that while also helping out at her secondary school tutoring maths and setting their A level maths students test preparation papers in her spare time.

She was way too good to stick around with the likes of us for very long, she got a cushy job working for Qinetiq instead, https://www.qinetiq.com/about-us and last we heard she was being interviewed on the radio talking about working at GCHQ. So, obviously I'm not saying there aren't some really uber smart cis women out there working in STEM, because the really smart cis women who want to, actually do find a way to work in STEM, but they aren't the same as the type who complain about not being allowed to work in STEM because they are women. If you see what I mean. 

Last Edited By: Xora Jun 2 17 2:46 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#22 [url]

May 29 17 5:06 PM

Overlapping bell curves – A couple standard deviations from “cis M” and “cis-F” distribution means, there is an overlapping region where gender presentation ceases to be “hetero-normative” and becomes “deviant.” Let's note here that Einstein is deviant as regards intellectual distribution, but he's arguably not “pathological.”  

The hetero-fascist hegemony of the normative gender dyad asserts, “Gender deviation is pathological, perverse.” This same hegemony asserted homosexuality was pathological and perverse until 1974 when it was removed from iDSM. We seem to be making progress inasmuch as the DSM 5 moved “us” from a “Gender ID Disorder” to “Gender Dysphoria.” The rationale attached to this revision is that the medical hegemony and insurance companies need a diagnostic code in order to provide medical care. Medical care infers a pathology. We're still “sick.”

Michel Foucault asserts infinite paradigms of sexual/gender expression. We are not bound by some teleological dyad – maybe for reproduction, but not for ontological identity.  And so I assert, “We are not sick, not perverse, not broken, not pathological, and we don't need to be fixed.”  

The only “regret” I would have about transition (in a surgical/hormonal context) is that I would buy into a hetero-fascist paradigm of rigid gender-role stereotypes. 

Sort of agree, but I don't know why you have so much against HRT, no one is forcing you to take it, in fact they make you jump through rather a lot of hoops to get it without self-medicating, but until you've tried it I don't think you should knock it, because it can really really help you mentally/emotionally even if you have no intention of presenting as a female. 

I'm not automatically 'sick' in a pathological psychological sense no, but if I could really think and feel a hell of a lot better biochemically, then I'd feel rather stupid for refusing to do so out a sense of personal injustice or holding on to some kind of personal academic ideological framework that no one else really seems to care much about. 
Or as someone once told me, 'Dude you just need to get laid, if you want a sex change, get a sex change..'. 
Yeah, like it's that fucking easy, like it isn't something I've pondered for getting on 20 years before finally deciding on..

I feel really stupid now for not finding out more about it years ago, but I had always previously believed that Transsexuals only actively sought HRT to develop external secondary sexual characteristics, no one ever mentioned getting psychological/emotional relief and better bodily integration from the HRT alone. 
But then, I spent 15 years sneakily visiting fictionmania etc, and not reading actual forums for transsexuals by transsexuals, so I really had a rather distorted view of the whole thing and lots of personal mental barriers to break down before I was brave enough to actually go and talk to my GP about it. 

Eventually I realised that, well duh, I'm not that poor nor do I have so much responsibility that I have no options but to keep hiding, and the laws are now in place to protect us and let us change all our official documentation and even get married, and hopefully I'm smart enough that I can still manage to get a good-enough job as a trans woman, and if I ever want to feel consistently better and actually be able to go where I want and do what I want to do, than that is probably something that I actually need to do, and really the big problem is the public perception of people like me, more than it is with the existence of people like me, because we are often really smart and awesome people, who just happen to have been born with the wrong genitals and chromosomes for our personalities and desires. 

Last Edited By: Xora Jun 2 17 2:49 PM. Edited 4 times.

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#23 [url]

May 29 17 6:50 PM

Xora wrote:

Eventually I realised that, well duh, I'm not that poor nor do I have so much responsibility that I have no options but to keep hiding, and the laws are now in place to protect us and let us change all our official documentation and even get married, and hopefully I'm smart enough that I can still manage to get a good-enough job as a trans woman, and if I ever want to feel consistently better and actually be able to go where I want and do what I want to do, than that is probably something that I actually need to do, and really the big problem is the public perception of people like me, more than it is with the existence of people like me, because we are often really smart and awesome people, who just happen to have been born with the wrong genitals and chromosomes for our personalities and desires. "

Xora, you're quite correct. You're not sick or pathological. You're not stupid either for the time it took to process your feelings and perform your own study to determine what is right for you. 

Bottom line, Xora: You Rock!

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#24 [url]

Jun 2 17 12:00 AM

Yes there are some programmes trying to persuade CIS-Females into STEM careers, set up by a few bodies who recognise the issue of their being far too few women who take this path...

But these programmes fade into insignificance when compared to the centuries of pressure on women that these professions are somehow 'unfeminine'

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#25 [url]

Jun 2 17 4:02 AM

[very vague and convoluted rambling; just to let things off my chest; I won't agree with half of it tomorrow, but anyway]

The point is not that much whether this or that woman achieved this or that, but rather how did they manage to find meaning and fulfilment in devoting a whole life to that kind of endeavours.
Xora, you go great lengths to devise a sophisticated notion of male and female psychologies in terms of highly abstract goal orientations, etc. to end up seemingly concluding that people in possess said female orientation would only engage in systematic rational creative thought as a form of sublimation of frustrated tendencies. That feels to me like leaving the job half done. The point of such an abstract level should be precisely the opposite, IMO.

Let's assume this mindset male/female divide in terms of inclinations attitude whatever does exist (not everybody agrees). One can speculate that integrating these inclinations, the basic mechanisms that regulate personal satisfaction, that into a life devoted to a certain activity in a way which is fulfilling might require certain cultural tools (maybe at an individual level). Crafting/developing those tools for meaning might not be entirely immediate. Now men have had hundreds of years of monopoly of all intellectual endeavour for them to craft those tools, while women have only recently broken that monopoly (the Hypatias, Ada Lovelaces etc. don't really count). Other than the fact that professional institutions and interpersonal culture in technical/scientific fields grew in the context of that monopoly and are thus going to be perfectly tailored to the way the average men thinks, part of the problem might be the absence of alternative cultural tools for meaning, so to say. That would be an ideal scenario. In fact we are surrounded by messages implicitly telling people that the existence of said tools is an impossibility. Everything that belongs to the symbolic, everything that's got some sort of agency and transcendence to it is somehow masculine by default. Some of these extreme TERFs seem to secretly believe the converse in a way: if something has got the label masculine onto it it's because it is a tool for transcendence and self determination that was once forcefully taken away from us.

The supposed encouragement given to girls to join STEM is often very shallow, when not plain mockery. This is how the EU was trying to encourage girls to go into science not such long time ago:
[url=
This campaign was fortunately pulled back (I don't recall at which stage). But the fact that enough people thought it was a good idea for it to get that far tells you loads about the mentality that is still around. Just try to imagine what an equivalent spot aimed at boys would look like: guns, football, explosions? What about making science a bit more EXTREEEEEME!!!! Heck yeah!!!
Society doesn't seem to see any significant gap to be bridged between the a young boy's drives and his future involvement in a technical field, while it does seem to in the case of a young girl. Now, to which extent is this because the means of bridging that gap in existence are so well tailored to the first case and so deeply ingrained that we stopped seeing them long ago?
And to which extent is it because it is more of a man made wall that we are talking about here? 

There is nothing inherently male or female in understanding and developing abstract systems. Nobody would say that male teachers end up turning their lesson into a sports match, or that a man goes into a technical profession because is not possible for him to spend his life hunting prey in the woods and other activities he would rather be doing and to which he would revert if only he was in a position to.
( By the way, evolutionary the development of abstract thought and sophisticated language us had apparently more to do with the intricacies of social interaction in larger social groups than with path finding and other "typically male" cognitive abilities. This is how we obliterated the Neanderthals, who had bigger brains than us overall and particularly much bigger visual cortices. )

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#26 [url]

Jun 2 17 4:41 AM

You boys are not usually caught in the midst of women and children, are you now? In fact, you often hang out with other feminine dudes like yourself, I bet. 
WELL, WHATEVER! Let's not forget FAMOUS fashion desighers, make-up artists, hair stylists, and oh yeah my favorite, ballet dancers.  Feminine MEN made the "pretty" in pretty things in women. 

The topic of this thread is "Busting the Regret Myth." 

(The current instruction for posting is to add some questions.)

Why do you suppose there are regrets?  What can a bit of hormone treatment not mitigate? 

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#28 [url]

Jun 2 17 10:06 AM

Jen, I was also more fascinated by the original op than the subsequent unrelated discussion, although the subsequent discussion would have been great in another thread. I frankly don't like the word "regret" used here, because it implies more than what seems to have happened with many of these cases. People decide to go down one path for a while, it doesn't work well for them, or just doesn't fit their original expectations, and they decided to switch direction. If they have had some permanent surgeries, there might be some regret, but for a lot of people, this might not be necessarily so. I am guessing that expectations is the key word here for many of these people who decide to detransition. There is a notion among many that ultimate goal is to become completely stealth and to embed oneself in the CIS world. In fact, anything short of that should be considered failure. Even if that was possible, which it truly isn't for about 99% of us, it means fitting into a box that is just as limiting as our previous life. I believe that realization is a big part of these cases.

Last Edited By: April Jun 2 17 10:31 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#29 [url]

Jun 2 17 12:23 PM

Exactly April!  It never really was about being all male or all female.  In fact, I think the trans person is really BOTH sexes and genders, but each side gets expressed through different circumstances.  The ever-changing trait of the trans person IS what makes them trans.  They can't be in one box or the other.  

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#30 [url]

Jun 5 17 10:27 AM

lal2828 wrote:
Exactly April!  It never really was about being all male or all female.  In fact, I think the trans person is really BOTH sexes and genders, but each side gets expressed through different circumstances.  The ever-changing trait of the trans person IS what makes them trans.  They can't be in one box or the other.  

It's the hetero-fascist, masculinist, hegemonic dyad dogma that creates the binaries.

Gender presentation can be fluid. It can be non-binary. Gender presentation can have a political agenda and a body of theoretical literature. This is all fundamentally about identity politics. Its more convoluted than what I choose to wear or with whom I choose to have sex.

For most I expect, gender identity is a personal issue. For me gender theory is an academic line of inquiry, a disciplinary field, research, publication . . . I've figured out who I am, and now work to explain to others what gender means and how it functions for those who don't fit neatly into binary boxes. 


 

Allison Wunderland's Transcend Dance
http://allisontranscend.blogspot.com/

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#31 [url]

I am not sure the question can rally be answered. It depends one when you ask someone and in what situation they are in. The question assumes everyone is the same. The studies I have looked all suffer from poor samples, flawed comparisons, lack of control groups, etc. I am not sure the question and focus on whether one regrets transition or not, is appropriate. I think it might be better to focus on is it right for yourself and how can you make it work for whatever decision you make for yourself. Focusing on regret of not as proof of doing the right thing is not productive, but also begs the question of why are you transitioning? To prove something or to better your life? Further, since when is annoy one's life one way or the other - it is usually a mixed bag.

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