#21 [url]

Apr 12 17 12:31 PM

I took it as an extreme example of how degenerate a civilisation can get, when the major pastime of the adult inhabitants is now creating video reviews of a series of movies, aimed at a teenage audience, which are themselves allegories of how degenerate the civilisation has become, and the reviewer himself is so degenerate that the review rapidly devolves into a pseudo teenage-girl style ranking of the mid-teenage boys involved in the movie, boys who are probably only about a quarter of his age, making him basically a paedophile, and yet says so very little about the possible merits of movie itself, let alone what it represents. Post-post-post-post modernism or something.

It was also a sideways glance at the supposed empathising-systematising divide, presumably making a fangirl scrapbook like that counts as systematising behaviour to a psychologist, but it hardly seems like an example of particularly 'male' typical behaviour. Asperger's Syndrome = very queer adult males whose brains essentially got stuck doing those teenage girl type potential mate selection processes years ago, so much so that they then decided to try to make a career out of it, only usually they don't make it quite so obvious what they are really thinking about, and at least try to sound intellectual by very carefully talking about things like quantum physics instead, but it's really much the same thing going on underneath. http://www.neoteny.org/2010/02/09/teleologys-biological-roots/

I mean girls do behave like that when they are young, but they usually have grown out of that kind of thing by the time they are 18 or so, after they have typically managed to have a few real sexual and romantic experiences, rather than just fantasised about them.


Yes I am probably still a lot younger on the inside than my external appearance would suggest, but no, I am not still gonna be a freak like that in my 50s.

Please just rescue me now or I'll happily shoot myself first ;-{

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#22 [url]

Apr 13 17 10:55 PM

That article is a complete load of crap in virtually every area.

Red flag people, if someone quotes those transphobes (and anti-gay) Green or Blanchard or Zucker you know it is nonsense. Add in deliberate misquoting of the Swedish study, which the author herself has publicly objected to (the actual results are the opposite of what is claimed), and you have the usual ‘concern troll’ transphobic article.

Take this piffle: "Although transsexualism (defined as those who want to change or do change their body) is very rare — a recent meta-analysis estimated the prevalence at about 5 per 100,000 "
A recent US survey (Pews Research) showed about 0.6% of the US population was transgender. The New Zealand schoolkid survey showed 1.2% identified as trans, and a third (0.4%) had already come out in their school years.

The endless 'Desistance Myth" ..that 'most trans kids grow out of it' ...that is one of the worst and most untrue Trans Myths around.

It came from comparing apples to oranges, that is gender nonconforming behaviour (GNC) and gender dysphoria (GD). They took (Zucker did the same) GNC and GD kids, with the majority being just GNC with no trans symptoms whatsoever (in Zuckers case 70% he 'treated' were just GNC).

Well of course they didn't grow up transgender...they never were in the first place. The analogy would be to take a bunch of people with no cancer, give them treatments and then claim they cured their cancer.

What matters is the level; of GD. Remember GD is the level of emotional distress at not being able to be your true gender, it goes away after transition and the younger you transition the better the results.

Even Zucker stated that if you have GD at the start of puberty you will never change.

High GD pre pubescent kids never grow out of it and will transition or die.
Of the low GD kids only a small number might ever transition and some will become non-binary. Of those in-between many will transition others will pick up some sort of non-binary identity (such as crossdreaming).

It has little to do with GNC behaviour, that is another myth. Though all trans kids will show some GNC traits they are not all stereotypical and show the same range of gender behaviour as their true gender peers. So just as only some cis girls are very ‘girly’ but many are not, the same happens with trans girls. Ditto for trans boys.
Take me, I had very strong physically based gender dysphroia as a kid but I wasn’t that into dolls…I loved science fiction…like a lot of cis girls, many of who have no time for dolls.

Internal gender identity forms around 2-4 (at the same as being able to pick others gender) it is as powerful and unchangeable as sexual orientation, once formed it does not change..

Based on Zucker's own stated numbers 67% of the pre pubescent kids with GD he saw and performed gay/trans conversion therapy on (they are the same techniques) still had GD at puberty… We don’t know, because he never did follow up studies, how many hid ‘in the closet’ to stop being abused and came out later…or how many killed themselves.

Given that GD varies and that someone with moderate GD might or might not later transition (though may express a non-binary identity), while whose with strong GD would nearly always transition, then they had a lot of kids that showed 100% (or close to it) persistence. Which he knew, his own research showed that…. Zucker endlessly contradicts himself between his public statements and his published research.

Someone here said that intersex people accept their assigned gender ...nope, the doctors get it wrong often...but they don't like to talk about that.

Go and see the intersex organisations sites and read what they say and why they want the ending of surgery (etc) on intersex babies until they are old enough to determine what they want, to stop the tragic mistakes so often made.. So ALL the intersex organisations disagree with that statement..

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#23 [url]

Apr 14 17 2:40 PM

Hi Lisa,

I was a bit worried when I woke in the middle of the night, and read your post: had I, in the delight of finding an article on gender in The Times, missed an overt or undercurrent theme of transphobia? I quickly re-read it, and was satisfied that I still liked the article. 

I hesitated posting a response. I didn't want to be defensive nor disrespectful of your comments. But I decided to go ahead, and while writing it I took closer looks at the original article. And now I have mixed feelings about it for sure.

Some examples:

About suicide and the Swedish study: I wasn't aware that he'd misquoted or misconstrued the study. I guess I just skimmed over that since from what I've heard (and believe in my heart) is that transexuals largely have the same suicide rates as the cisgender population: at least those who transition when young. 

He wrote: "On a broader level, the outcome studies suggest that gender reassignment doesn’t necessarily give everyone what they really want or make them happier." I mean, what's the point? Of course, nothing always works. All of us have a mix of characteristics, issues, and problems, which we will carry with us whether we transition or not. Transition is certainly not a cure-all!

Thus, I thank you for your feedback. I certainly meant no harm when I made my original post.

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#24 [url]

Apr 15 17 12:18 AM

The Dhejne study, maybe because English was not their first language, was very badly written. If you go into the data tables you get a very different results.

Crisitin Williams interviewed her: http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

"Dhejne: People who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look at the literature, we find that several recent studies conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria and improves mental health."

"Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality."L

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group."
Comment: I expect many of those offense for the earlier group would be sex work related by the way.

"The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse."

There you have it. To be clear:

No, the study does not show that medical transition results in suicide or suicidal ideation. The study explicitly states that such is not the case and those using this study to make that claim are using fallacious logic.
No, the study does not prove that trans women are rapists or likely to be rapists. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a euphemism for rape.
No, the study does not prove that trans women exhibit male socialization. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a claim that trans women were convicted of the same types of crime as cis men."


And underestimating the number of trans people by more than a factor of 100 (0.005% vs 0.6%)..... is simple trans erase.

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#25 [url]

Apr 15 17 4:59 AM

Regarding the statistics, I am well aware of the 0.6% figure and believe in it. Specifically, it was released by The Williams Institute (at UCLA) in June 2016: "We find that 0.6% of U.S. adults identify as transgender." This percentage will likely increase over time as younger people become a larger proportion of the population. We see this now in their study that shows 0.66% of 18-24 year olds identify as transgender.

But remember that these are numbers for those who identify as transgender, where transgender represents the spectrum of people who have gender dysphoria, a wide range indeed. I am not aware of statistics that show the distribution of people in various groupings in this range but it's safe to say that transexuals are less than 100% of the total, likely much less.

I agree that his figure (5 per 100,000) seems remarkably low (less than 1% of transgender people). I'd love to hear better figures.

As a side note, yesterday I received an email from the NYT regarding their Sunday Review, which is where the original article was published. Here's an interesting excerpt:

“I love it!” Or “great point!” Or, ideally: “This is so informative and moving and insightful that I should email this to everyone I have ever met and share it on multiple social media platforms immediately!”

That’s what I secretly hope readers think when they encounter Sunday Review stories each week.

But maybe I should hope you hate what you’re reading.

In this weekend’s Sunday Review, Pamela Paul, editor of The Times Book Review, encourages us all to give hate reading a try.

In her essay, she argues that subjecting yourself to a book or, let’s say, an opinion essay, on a topic that you’d rather avoid can be invigorating. “To actively grapple with your assumptions and defend your conclusions gives you a sense of purpose,” she writes.

Interesting, no?

Last Edited By: Emmasweet Apr 15 17 5:01 AM. Edited 1 time.

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