#3 [url]

Sep 30 16 11:58 AM

I've read posts like this before ; Without reading this one all I can say is I've read enough accounts from people whose SRS has brought them just what they want to believe it s the right approach for some people

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

Oct 1 16 8:09 AM

Without reading this one all I can say is I've read enough accounts from people whose SRS has brought them just what they want to believe it s the right approach for some people


The research says as much, as well. I guess Clare's idea here was to bring some more sense of realism as regards the expectations some have to the end result. That's fair.

It is interesting to see how people reacted to this over at reddit/transgender. Half got furious. Half just shruggend and said "what else is new"?

I am glad it is possible to discuss the problems of being transgender now, without gatekeepers and trans purists using it to disqualify and invalidate trans people who do not follow the "classical transsexual" narative.


 

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

Oct 3 16 9:00 AM

I think everybody who goes down this path is perfectly aware of the limitations of what they are acquiring. The outcomes here vary considerably, and some surgeons are just better than others. There also appears to be some trade off between cosmetic appearance and functionality. If sensation is the most important thing, Dr. Supporn in Thailand comes highly recommended. His procedure really emphasizes preservation of the nerves. I haven't yet decided whether I am going down this path, but if I do, I would want sensation to be the number one priority. I have read some accounts by post-op girls who have described mind blowing experiences. I have read of others who were rather disappointed. Everybody is different. I believe a big part of the gate keeping is there to see if the person wants to be the opposite sex so much, that it is worth a disappointing result in a sexual performance sense.

Last Edited By: April Oct 30 16 12:00 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

Feb 3 17 10:37 PM

I have been following the thread of this article for a few years now. The author makes some very interesting assertions about the state of gene therapy and regenerative medicine that is of interest to the transgendered.

http://hplusmagazine.com/2014/05/08/total-gender-change-within-decade/

It might actually be possible to have the reproductive organs of your true gender and not in 20 or 30 years... by 2020 perhaps?

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Feb 4 17 7:42 AM

That 'hplusmag' article was something I found linked to from somewhere else back in 2013. 
Strangely after that it seemed to get the 404 treatment, but perhaps it's back now. 

Anyway, I guess it kind of illustrates the sort of vicious cycle of transition chicken we seem to be trapped in. 
We want to transtion to be as passable as possible, once we are old enough and self-sufficient enough to afford it, and having the surgery privately is very expensive so that may take a long time, but it's important to begin before we start to deteriorate physically so much that we are no longer attractive. 

The longer we wait, in theory, the better the advances in medical science, the less it matters about getting older before transition as all that super-duper future tissue engineering nanotech stuff will be able to fix us up and make us look like hot 20 year olds even if we're 60 on the inside. The longer we wait, the more we can earn before transtitioning, the more chance there is of our actually being able to afford this kind of tissue engineering nanotech stuff, when it inevitably becomes available. 

If we go in for a career in science first, we might even be the ones to help develop the super-duper tissue engineering nanotech to make our dreams come true, which will make it all the more worthwhile, and we'll be able to help out the younger members of our community so they can transition sooner and better than we were able to..

Or we just get to 40+ years old, realise that super-duper tissue engineering nanotech is not actually right around the corner, its not just still 10-15 years away, it's just overhyped fodder to sell science-porn to emotionally immature, terrified, 'autistic'/AGP geeks, in magazines who's actual primary purpose is not so much to report on the latest developments coming out of the labs, but to sell other ads for really expensive watches and whiskeys and further advertise expensive PhD programs and so forth, which in turn are really designed to attract more attention and funding to the universities in question, and more pay to their senior administrators, not to produce any actual radical advances in science, at least not of the kind we are hoping for within our lifetimes. 

Then we wish we'd had a bit more sense back in our early 20s, to have actually taken the plunge and transtioned then, with whatever technology was available at the time, so that we might already be where we wanted to be in life and happily married, rather than overweight and balding and still pining for a future that looks more and more uncertain by the day. 

Ah well..

Oh yeah, and while we're digging ourselves deeper and deeper into fantasies of stem-cell reprogramming, well those other members of our community, at the other end of the economic scale, that we don't like to think about so much, are still somehow making do with paying a few bucks to have their butts pumped full of silicone or even cement which is really posionous to their entire system..
Do we actually care about the plight of other transsexuals, as those rich magazine publishers and university administrators sure don't, unless they are closet tranny-chasers.

The world truely sucks sometimes, I just want out..

Last Edited By: Xora Feb 4 17 8:05 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

Feb 4 17 1:58 PM

A favorite transphobe talking point is: "DNA never lies", meaning that no matter how successful HRT and various surgical procedures are, you will still have the chromosomes of your birth sex. Of course, you also won't be able to reproduce in accordance with the sex with which you identify. For the transphobes, that is the end of discussion; nothing else really matters. What they don't get is the fact that none off that is relevant to the trans. We are operating in another dimension that is not about biological reproduction. We are in this to create a physical presentation that fits with our souls, and in that regard, nothing else matters.

Last Edited By: April Feb 4 17 4:50 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

Feb 4 17 2:34 PM

At some point it just becomes an exercise in arguing semantics about abstractions. 
" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">

Yes, brain wise she is 'biologically female', if not chromosomally or anatomically.
So anyone saying that that doesn't really make her able to call herself a 'woman' is arguing about an abstract concept they themselves don't really understand, which is the same as saying that someone with CAIS is not really a 'woman' because they weren't born with the right chromosomes or a uterus, when to them it's just more of a birth defect, not a defining category. 

Oh, and I'm far enough over the line that I'm probably more feminine eventhan the creator of the video 
https://goo.gl/images/z9rKcZ

Quote    Reply   

#10 [url]

Feb 8 17 5:30 PM

If the first person on this video really doesn't give a F***k why has she taken many minutes from her day to plan and make a video having her go at defining other people.. she needs to get her head sorted.... I'm not sure I care myself what someone's Chromosones are; if he or she wants to adjust their appearance to more 'fit in' with the gender they were not born as and that makes them HAPPIER - then I will always respect that, as I will if someone wants to appear androgenous

Quote    Reply   

#11 [url]

Mar 3 17 7:25 PM

Menses, pregnancy, menopause . . . not having to get screened for prostate issues . . .

Radical feminists assert (as in TERF) that cis-M born trans-women have not experienced the ontological essence of being female, This from an historical perspective. I tend to agree, and argue that we should not need to. There should be sufficient diversity options in presentation that we need not resort to hormones and surgery.

I am who I am -- pretty non binary, not stereotypical.

Quote    Reply   

#12 [url]

Mar 4 17 12:53 AM

There are plenty of Cis-women who can't get pregnant, who have already passed through the menopause,

If someone feels there life is improved by appearing female while naked, who is anyone else to say otherwise. While rare overall, its apparent to me that enough people feel that way, even though I don't need this, that I don't deny the existence of these feelings...

"I don't feel that way, therefor nobody else does" is aa moribund argument, which I could use to deny any interest in others of any interest in Scuba diving, American football and rap music, to name but three.

Quote    Reply   

#13 [url]

Mar 4 17 9:22 AM

You miss the point entirely as regards biological essentialism. The line of inquiry here is not,
"I don't feel that way, therefore nobody else does."

The question before us herein is "true sex organs" -- not whether or not you should do hormones and surgery. These are choices, like getting a tattoo, piercings, wearing a jock-strap, booking a flight to Amsterdam.

The question before us is "Do surgery and hormones result in a cis-F?" Surgery and hormones does not render one the other biological sex. What surgery does is cosmetic. Hormones are cosmetic too, but they additionally afford some psycho-socio, behvioral resolution to testosterone engendered angst. Hormones (estrogen) nontheless will not transition your biological essence to the other sex.

That said, this question is pretty much moot. It's been litigated and decided in all sorts of application.

Quote    Reply   

#14 [url]

Mar 4 17 9:55 AM

Allison, I don't know of a single transitioner who truly believes that they can obtain chromosomal equivalency of a cis person of the sex with which they identify. I said it exactly that way, because FtMs seem to always get short changed in these discussions. Yes, there are a number of transitioners who attempt (and some who actually succeed) at embedding themselves in the cis world by going completely stealth, but all know, that in a purely reproductive sense, there are considerable limitations on what modern medical science can do. None of that really matters to them; it isn't a relative dimension to their condition. The issue here is purely a resolution of social and physical dysphoria. This is all comes down to everybody finding their comfort zone here.

Quote    Reply   

#15 [url]

Mar 4 17 10:08 AM

Alli, you seem to miss the point. The vast majority of trans people realize that they will never be cis. But being the wrong sex is destroying their lives. Any vestige of their old self causes terrible dysphoria. Having surgery is for the patient not for everyone else's peace of mind.

You're right that many can find contentment short of SRS. But don't try to argue that it solves everyone's circumstance. Your argument of not being a true cis is just trying to distract us from the true issue.

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

Quote    Reply   

#16 [url]

Mar 15 17 10:10 AM

Lindsay wrote:
Alli, you seem to miss the point. The vast majority of trans people realize that they will never be cis. But being the wrong sex is destroying their lives. Any vestige of their old self causes terrible dysphoria. Having surgery is for the patient not for everyone else's peace of mind.

You're right that many can find contentment short of SRS. But don't try to argue that it solves everyone's circumstance. Your argument of not being a true cis is just trying to distract us from the true issue.

We are not arguing that SRS whatever "solves problems." SRS solves problems for some individuals. But SRS does not trans-form them into cis-F. 

"Being the wrong sex" was destroying my life -- dysphoria, PTSD, substance abuse. And what I resolved FOR MY OWN PERSONAL IDENTITY is that the other gender pole is not the answer either. My personal, socio-cultural gender presentation is somewhere in the middle.

But this thread keeps getting highjacked into an argument for SRS legitimation. SRS is legit for some, but it doesn't transition them into the other cis-sex. What SRS does is afford a more viable socio-cultural gender presentation for that particular individual.

That particular gender presentation is not going to work for me. Presentation is broader for me than a masculinist hegemonic polar hetero-normative dyad.

Allison Wunderland's Transcend Dance
http://allisontranscend.blogspot.com/

Quote    Reply   

#17 [url]

Mar 15 17 10:58 AM

It might not be possible currently, but science has made huge strides. 


What if the day does come in which we can in someway not only give people the bodies they want, but change them from a transwoman (or trans man ) into a cis-woman (or man).  What happens to the terms cis and trans when we can change a  person on every level: body, bones, blood, functional organs, and even one's very DNA?

Do they becoming nothing more than signatures of origin?  I have no doubt it is possible, though it might be a ways off.

What a great day that would be Yay

Quote    Reply   

#18 [url]

Mar 15 17 2:44 PM

I think we've all lost the plot somewhat. What is the actual goal of the system? Is there one?

"'The optimum population,' said Mustapha Mond, 'is modelled on the iceberg--eight-ninths below the water line, one-ninth above.'"

image
image

image


So I guess I count as 'middle class', so still 'below the waterline' unless I somehow make it really big like a Richard Branson or Paul Allen, coz I'm fairly well educated AFAICT and sort of in whats considered a high tech profession, though I'm by no means a high flyer. Depending on your perspective I'm a sort of failed hanger-on to the inflated higher social aspirations of my parents, more due to them continually propping me up than to my own personal life successes. Well now that a lot of my older relatives and one of my parents is dead and my mum has inherited some money, and we have a house that's all paid for and so forth we're more or less living on capital alone, though I kind of feel that goes against my personal sense of ethics and I'd rather be doing something maybe more low-skilled that I could do consistently well and actually support myself with. Like try to use the relative money and freedom that you have now to maybe make things work just a little better so that by the time you are 50-60 and that's probably all gone you aren't still left all on your own, being really psychologically immature and still struggling with no pension. Whatever..

Like I have never really liked the idea of there being such a class system at all, on sort of 'pseudo-moral' grounds, since I probably actually benefit from it a lot more than some, but it's taken me a long time to realise that the aversion I have to it is probably just a product of my 'queer' psychology, straight men really don't seem to have nearly so much of a problem with knowing and accepting their place in the pecking order, and that its essentially an inevitable result of our differing underlying biology and not purely due to social coercion in needlessly impoverishing the lower classes, so it can't really be 'fixed' with ever more equal opportunities laws or differing educational policies, and it maybe is necessary for there to be a relatively few really smart people that are much more highly educated to control the masses who aren't, so that we can all materially benefit from having all these big complex businesses and utilities and governments that 'look after' everyone to one degree or another but I wish those at the 'top' weren't always so obviously creaming of the efforts of millions at the bottom because from where I'm standing it all seems so cruel and unfair.

But anyway, I guess I'm saying that all this identity politics and sexual minority stuff is not about bringing about any actual long term social change, the system carries on re-perpetuating itself regardless with fresh bodies every few decades, and it's more of a bit of temporary side-show motivation and distraction, something else to argue about like 'bathroom bills', so that you stop looking so hard at the people pulling all your strings.

To them you are more or less just a self-motivated mobile meat based cog in their private money-making machine, and while you might believe you have the 'right' to make these personal lifestyle choices, that you possess a soul or a spirit that wants to soar to new heights and you want to experience true love or start a family, they don't want to spend that much money or effort on giving you crazy total-gene makeover treatments when you are basically just expendable apart from all the effort they have already invested in your brain making you somewhat skilled in one particular domain or another. We don't change people body bones and blood and DNA etc., if they are somewhat useful we prop them up by spending as little as possible on them, making them jump through lots of hoops in the name of 'safety', eventually maybe fixing their flawed biology and basically humouring their neurosis, if they are not so useful we let them blow their brains out if they want to, and there are always plenty more where they came from

Your life is not really about these kinds of personal freedoms and experiences, that's just the product of centuries of religious indoctrination and the last 100 or so years of excess industrialisation and consumerism having pretty much rewitten our psychology to have massively inflated expectations of our own personal value to the world. The terms 'cis' and 'trans' in this context are merely a cultural invention of the last decade or so in which we have started to address/pander to some more obscure aspects of the collective variations of human biology/psychology, who seem to be getting quite vocal about their so-called 'rights', as it's probably ultimately cheaper than just keeping them on psychiatric drugs for the rest of their lives. Get a few nice propaganda pieces on the TV to make the scared and deeply closetted feel a bit safer about coming out and getting treated and they'll maybe stop perpetuating the problem on into the next generation.

I know I'm really cynical right now, but you know, all the advances we have had in science and technology in my short lifetime seem mostly to go towards tightening the cage around us, providing us with mere mindless entertainment, and giving us starry-eyed hope for a glorious future singularity type event that is never really going to happen.

Last Edited By: Xora Mar 16 17 3:26 AM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#19 [url]

Mar 15 17 3:20 PM

I don't know of one trans person who believes that they are capable of being CIS, with or without SRS. What some do believe is that at some point in their transition, they will be able to embed themselves in the CIS world, and essentially live that way. I am not one of those. I have no desire at all to be stealth, and I am not fixated on being passable at all cost. That is way too restrictive for me and my highly rebellious nature. Many in the trans community willingly sacrifice a great deal of who they are, simply to pass. One of the prime rules of accomplishing that is never doing anything that draws unnecessary scrutiny. I violate that at every opportunity because my journey more about being exactly who I am than about being woman. I much rather be a rather loud and proud trans, than to be a rather non descript female living under the radar. That is just me, and I make no judgement on those who follow different paths. My presentation and lifestyle choices are all based on letting the outside reflect what I feel on the inside. They are colors in my palette with which I create life's art. What I believe is in indiviiduality and the freedom to choose how we wish to appear to others. I don't really care at all how that conflicts with some ideology or dogma.

Last Edited By: April Mar 15 17 8:14 PM. Edited 5 times.

Quote    Reply   

#20 [url]

Mar 16 17 12:21 AM

But anyway, I guess I'm saying that all this identity politics and sexual minority stuff is not about bringing about any actual long term social change, the system carries on re-perpetuating itself regardless with fresh bodies every few decades, and it's more of a bit of temporary side-show motivation and distraction, something else to argue about like 'bathroom bills', so that you stop looking so hard at the people pulling all your strings.


All right. I'll bite ;)

Social progress ( in the sense of providing more freedom to individuals to express who they truly are) always meets backlashes. If you look at the history of women's freedom thorughout European history it goes from pure Taliban (ancient Athens), via bad (Roman republic) and not too bad (Imperial Rome) to bad again (early Medieval period) to better (in the late medieval period) to bad again (Victorian Britain). 

Right now we see a backlash against gay and transgender rights. Still, the lives of gay and trans people in the West have improved significantly in the last 40 years or so, particularly for the gay and lesbian population. The right wing extremist backlash may destroy whatever rights the LGBTQA community have achieved, but we might also win this part of the war. Same-sex marriage has solid support in most Western countires.

I guess what I am saying is that even if there will always be backlashes, you may also achieve long periods of tolerance and relative freedom, even in a pretty oppressive system like the one we are living in. And that increases the chances of happiness for a lot of people, at least for a while.

Watching young trans kids blossom and thrive is worth the struggle, I am sure.

By the way, your observations about working class people being freer than constipated and repressed middle class Europeans was confirmed by Wilhelm Reich, the German sexologist and revolutionary. He observed that he found no sexual neuroses among the working class people he and his colleagues treated. They practiced a very liberated and unhibited sexuality without the hang-ups he found in the German middle and upper classes.

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help