#81 [url]

Apr 9 17 10:12 AM

Xora, It's becoming increasingly clear to me that some of the most transphobic people on the web are the relatives of people who are either open trans, or appear to be headed in that direction. While this includes all relatives, mothers appear to me to be particularly outspoken. They tend to see the trans as a cult out to steal the minds of their love ones. They will use any and every transphobic argument available to them to strike out at the trans. I suspect that they have internalized a lot of transphobia that is floating around in general society, but the primary motivation for their rage is the emotional investment they have made in a status quo they see crumbling down around them.

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#82 [url]

Apr 9 17 11:41 AM

Jen, You use the word "trend" here. Over the last few days, I have read that word repeatedly used in the transgender discussion, especially by the people who hang around Blanchard's twitter account. I see nothing wrong with the word by itself. I believe the considerable media exposure given to trans issues has created a sense of security for many that has allowed them to come out of the closet about long held feelings. But many of the trans critics equate the word "trend" with being a passing fad. They see all the publicity, along with the increased social justice and healthcare available to the trans as pushing an idea that being trans is something really cool to be right now. Most of the mothers of these FtMs seem to be somewhat comfortable with the idea of their "daughters" being lesbian, or even rather gender non conforming, but heaven forbid them transitioning. They see that as the result of a confused young person being seduced by an ever more tolerated trans culture. They have reacted by railing against everything in the trans world. I am no expert on FtMs by any means. My only direct experience is seeing a few of them in a monthly trans support group. My general impression is that their identities appear as valid as my own.

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#83 [url]

Apr 9 17 1:01 PM

Well I don't know anyone else transitioning or transitioned personally either, but I know of one person that's the adopted daughter now son of the husband of a friend of my mothers, if that makes any sense. 
From what I've been told he was really unhappy as a girl for years, had a load of piercings, was self-harming and basically tearing the place down. Once he transitioned to being a man all of that anxiety went away and he's now a really talented artist. 
So it's not just about what you want to dress in or what job you want to do, it really is how you want others to treat you and basically a biochemical imbalance that can't be fixed another way. 

When talking to my primary contact at the GIC, who has only been doing the job just over a year, she said she noticed that the FTM cases she sees still think like teenage boys, even if they are mid-twenties or later, it's like their minds/bodies have just been waiting for something to happen, something that should have happened years before, and they are kind of kept in limbo and just unable to mature normally. In that sense it is an intersex condion, at least of the brain and often of other parts of the body as well, if not the genitals. 

There are probably far more of us out there, in either direction, than most are willing to acknowledge, hence the ever increasing waiting lists and things. In terms of MTFs I'm probably closest to Stephanie Hirst in a six-degrees of Kevin Bacon sense in real life, not that she knows me either.

Last Edited By: Xora Apr 9 17 1:44 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#84 [url]

Apr 15 17 3:18 PM

Multitude of issues here, first Zucker and Bradley (and others) are just flying kites, yet another 'they are -anything else- but trans' argument.

Zucker's own paper stated that there was no evidence (even with his 'very' loose definition of ASD) of a link.... Another case of Zucker's public anti-trans statements contradicting his own published research. He does that a lot. If there is any link at all then it will be in that a kid with some ASD traits ‘might’ be less sensitive to negative signals from family and society and push their own desires more and earlier, while someone more emotionally sensitive to others feelings will hide it for bit longer.

There is also a sexism bias here too, autism is seen by many as ‘an extreme male brain;’ (piffle by the way) …so almost by definition a trans boy is seen as ASD…’they think and act like a male so they MUST be ASD then’.

And the definition (and speculated underlying causes) of ASD changes all the time, not that long ago it was seen as a form of schizophrenia. Now it is so broad that anyone who is analytic, capable of focussing on a single topic for a long period of time, has a high IQ or not 'super' social is seen as ASD…. We don’t even know if there is a link between the clear (and crippling) extreme autism and the milder forms, that is just speculation.

But we are getting it for 2 reason, first from transphobies and their endless ‘they are -anything else- but trans (who don’t really exist) , if we cure that -anything- else they will stop being trans’ and from some people who find it more emotionally comforting to think of themselves as ASD rather than trans because they have less internal prejudice against that (some who identify as having AGP are doing the exact same thing).

That often quoted general brain research thing is piffle, because it doesn't separate between the known hard wired areas of the brain and the plastic ones. For example your visual cortex is hard wired....there is almost zero plasticty in it, once it has formed that's it. And that applies to many areas of the brain and we know that sexual orientation and internal gender identity are also hard wired.

So any of those types of studies have to deal with different parts in different ways, Many parts are very plastic, motor areas for example are incredibly so. Some parts start very plastic then harden...language learning skills for example (though there is initial underlying very strong hard wired part too). Spatial skills are another very plastic area, even older people can greatly improve those abilities with a bit of training.. Some areas are downright weird, the classic being how we instinctively calculate probabilities and they are nearly always wrong, unless you use formal statistical training to overcome them.

So our brains are a real mish mash of parts, some very primitive, some very hard wired, some very plastic and any gross generalisation are almost by definition misleading.

The increase in trans kids (pre or during puberty) coming out is simply a reflection of greater knowledge being available, which lets the kids (and parents) conceptionalise what they are feeling. Plus (a bit) better acceptance.

I didn't know what I felt as a kid meant and thought I was the only person in the whole world like that, there was zero information available. So I couldn't attach any meanings to what I was feeling. I poured over encyclopaedias and while I found it easy to understand the female reproductive system I never could understand the male one....lol.
Gay and lesbian people? Nothing...they were all in deep hiding and were bogy people, ‘monsters’, ‘mentally ill’. LGBTI people got thrown in jail or far worse mental institutions to be 'cured' (that was my big fear that someone would find out about me and I'd get throw in an asylum). And it was 'impossible' to change gender.
So it was a long time later before I worked out what all my feelings meant and what I could do about them and ...of course.. that I could be accepted by society if I transitioned.

Nowadays kids can find out early and link their feelings to concepts and hence understand themselves, and then work out what they can do about it. While things are still bad they get a lot more acceptance now than they did in the past.
So we are seeing kids coming out whereas before they would have been in their 20s, or 30s, 40s....if they survived that long.

This is not just trans kids, it applies to LGB people too, they are coming out ever younger as well. and no one is saying that 'is a fad' and 'they are being coerced into it'. They have access to knowledge that lets them know they are quite normal in feeling that way and that, generally, society will accept them.


As for "Most of the mothers of these FtMs seem to be somewhat comfortable with the idea of their "daughters" being lesbian, or even rather gender non conforming, but heaven forbid them transitioning."...

I disagree and think a lot are being real liars over that. They say that until their beloved daughter turns up looking all butch and with her girlfriend ...then watch the homophobia spill out from them. Over in that horrible 4thWaveNow site, watch the reaction when a mother reports about her daughter, when after a GNC period, goes all feminine ...and they all cheer. 'Whew they say, now she will wear dresses and get married to a man and have kids' (their obsession about fertility is a big indirect hint about what they really feel).

Their tolerance of female GNC behaviour is very shallow, fine pre pubescent (tom boys have always been accepted) but not after puberty when the gender (and sexuality) hammer comes down hard on them.

Plus not all would grow up lesbians…even Zucker (another area where his public statements contradict his own research) showed that about 25% of adolescent trans boys were not female attracted…. And no doubt quite a few of those who are female attracted are actually bisexual, judging by the number of trans men who report sexuality changes (really partner gender changes) post transition.


The number of Trans Myth out there…and instead of them dwindling as they get debunked, transphobes keep adding to them, and the old ones are like those Hammer Film vampires, no mater how many stakes you hammer into them they stay alive.

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#85 [url]

Apr 15 17 3:35 PM

Perfect example of how knowing what you are and what your feelings mean:


"Everyone's experience may be different but for me it seemed to manifest in two ways: the fear, anxiety, the sense of inescapable wrongness and abhorrence - these were immediate responses to perceptions and ideas or experiences across any day. There was also the sense of confinement, deep sadness, confusion and loss and this was more of a backdrop to my life . . . a kind of constant groan. I was a spectator as I watched other girls living my life whilst I endured the drudgery of an unwanted life.

I did find solace in art and science and the beauty of the world around us. These were things which I could carry inwardly and the outward of expression of which would become a significant part of the person everyone knew. It wasn't contrived or false. It was a natural, organic part of growing up for me, just as all kids express themselves through their interests, play, hobbies and happiness projects. But this was who I was to the world, whilst part of me simmered beneath it all.

A lot of this changed when I heard the word "transsexual" for the first time, at the age of around 10. My life had direction and I knew that I would find a way, because others were. I wasn't alone any more and most importantly I knew that the boys and teachers who tried to shame me when I was younger were wrong. I very soon envisaged that my difference was special, shining and brilliant. There was nothing for me to feel ashamed of in any way and I was in every way fit to give and receive love. I feel that these perceptions were significant drivers of my early transition - shaping a determination to act, rather than hide."

"The passage of time has erased the details of the report, except that the announcer was talking about a person who had been born male but had a "sex change" to become a female. The person was a "transsexual". This feat was achieved by the use of hormones and surgery"

I recall no other circumstances of the day except for sitting in our large playroom at the rear of our garage, knowing that this was a thing. I wasn't alone. It wasn't my imagination out of control and it wasn't something which everyone felt but never mentioned. My sense that I was trapped in the wrong body and the wrong life was real.I was defined. I was a transsexual. It wasn’t a very nice sounding word. It sounded like something was wrong with me. I guess it was, because my body was wrong and it was causing me all kinds of sadness and pain. But was this a bad thing? I wasn't entirely sure. I did know that if I told anybody that I would be bullied again, just as I was in my first couple of years in infants school. So others wanted me to be ashamed of myself but they were wrong and here was proof. It was a rare thing, but it was a real thing. How could it be bad to want to be who you really are?"


Last Edited By: LisaM Apr 15 17 3:40 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#86 [url]

Apr 16 17 3:47 AM

I really don't get why people seem to want to say 'there is no proven link between ASD and gender variance', or 'ASD people only think they are gender variant because they have ASD', or 'only ASD people will publically come out about their gender variance because due to their ASD they are obviously less socially sensitive to other's potential disapproval' and so on. 

Surely if we can use whatever means at our disposal to definitively prove that 'ASD IS brain gender variance' then we kill two birds with one stone, as it becomes a solid scientific basis for the people who really want have same-sex partners or really want to transition having a very good reason for actually feeling they way they claim to feel and so having good reason to do so, and we then don't have to spend lots more money researching and treating that mysterious pre-natal hormonal 'ASD' when we could just already be treating people, (or not treating people, as the case may be), for their sexual or gender variance instead, which we actually already know how to do, and quite a bit more successfully.

It's maybe more a case of 'I'll probably only have this ASD thing until you give me the HRT I obviously need, and afterwards I'll feel so much better I'll probably be just fine'.. Except you can't get that far nowadays, because the ASD thing can now be used to invalidate the Transgender thing.. which is really weird.

Parents won't have to worry about who will look after their permanently immature and socially dysfunctional children after they are long dead and gone, because with the right treatment the kids will just grow up relatively normally, if possibly infertile, and will just blend in with everyone else, and get married to people they fall in love with, and so forth. You cannot teach a trans girl to be a boy or a trans boy to be a girl, no matter what you do, but you don't have to spend their entire childhood dragging them from one doctor or therapist to another and making them feel permanently defective and guilty just for being who they are.

From that perspective, going round diagnosing lots of gender variant kids like Chris-Chan with ASD is really good for the ASD industry, the researchers, scientists, therapists and charities, but not very good for the children themselves, as it makes them very confused about themselves and so takes them much longer to come out, which leaves them lagging behind their same-age peers, and making them exactly the kind of big hairy people you don't want invading your public bathrooms..


Amongst these are the stories of denial. The methods we used for convincing ourselves we can’t possibly really be trans, we simply must be making a mistake. They echo the concepts that thread through cis society and are used as a means of invalidating us. “It’s probably just a kink, a sex thing”, “it’s just a phase… if I just settle down with a woman, maybe have some kids, and learn how to be a good man, it will go away”, “doesn’t everybody, on some level, sort of want to be the opposite sex?”, “I should just learn to live with being a feminine man”, “I just need to man-up, be more masculine, that will make it go away”, “maybe I’m just a self-hating gay man?”, “maybe I can just cross-dress on weekends? That will be good enough”, “It’s just my asperger’s”, “just my OCD”, “just my depression”, “just my lack of confidence”, “just my hatred of my identity”, “just…”.

So change all that to 'How do I know I'm really queer/trans? Well because I have Asperger's syndrome and that is what Asperger's syndrome biologically is, as has been proven by this that and the other scientific study..'. Then people can't keep arguing nature vs nurture with you any more. So it's case closed..

Look, I've been at this game a long time now, and everywhere you look for gender variant people online, you find people diagnosed with Asperger's, and everywhere you look for Asperger's people online, you find queer or transgender people. So something is definately going on there...

Do you have any theories about what would attract transgendered persons to game development in what appear to be disproportionately large numbers?
I think being transgender does give you a gift of imagination. I sometimes compare it to being one of the few people who have both an AM and FM radio in their car in a world where most people only get to have one type. There's another factor, which I call the nerd factor. When we are growing up, Transgendered kids tend to be socially isolated. They deal with this by both learning and seeking recourse in their imaginations. For example, when I was 11 years old, I constructed in my mind a vast society in which everyone was about half an inch tall. Sort of a giant imaginary model railroad.
Could the physical cause of transsexualism be directly related to high intelligence?
The physical causes are not well understood. The prevailing theory has neurological changes being triggered by prenatal hormonal events. Supposedly transsexual babies don't get masculinizing hormones and then develop "female brains." It is also believed that much of the neurological development in the later stages is subtractive. Maybe transsexuals grew better hardware to start with, but I suspect the nerd factor is more important.
When did you first notice that the percentages seemed higher than among, say, auto mechanics?
We have a support group here in Silicon Valley and one night several of us just showed up. It was something like three out of twelve people there. That's when I started keeping a list. This higher percentage has been observed in other populations. For example: railroad fans. Supposedly many of the engineers that worked for NASA were also transgender. Of course, during those days, you were more likely to hide it.
Most transsexuals have struggled greatly with their predicament. One gambit is called hyper masculinity. A transgender person will try to adapt by joining the military or seeking particularly dangerous work. For example, the woman who was president of the local support group before me was in the Delta force antiterrorism unit. I know several former fighter pilots as well.

I even had one guy with an Asperger's diagnosis, offering to meet up with me so that we could both cross-dress together. 
I turned him down because I hadn't come out to my family at that point, so was still unsure, but there you go..

The extreme male brain revisited: gender coherence in adults with autism spectrum disorder.
RESULTS:Women with ASD had higher total and bioactive testosterone levels, less feminine facial features and a larger head circumference than female controls. Men in the ASD group were assessed as having less masculine body characteristics and voice quality, and displayed higher (i.e. less masculine) 2D:4D ratios, but similar testosterone levels to controls.
Androgynous facial features correlated strongly and positively with autistic traits measured with the Autism-Spectrum Quotient in the total sample. In males and females with ASD dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate did not decrease with age, in contrast to the control group.

 So all we need now is for Bill Gates himself to come out as gay/trans and then we'll all know for sure..

But I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for that.
I mean Daniel Tammet knew he was into boys from when he was in primary school, and actually moved in with his older computer programmer boyfriend in his twenties, and his parents didn't appear to mind all that much.  


How far apart are Daniel Tammet and Chelsea Manning really? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11874276 
The main difference being that Chelsea Manning's dad kicked her out of the house for being gay and too effeminate, forcing her to live for years out of her car while she worked for Zotto, then making her join the Army to try to escape from herself. Both were obviously super intelligent from a young age, both kinda small and scrawny relative to regular men, both were diagnosed or suspected with ASD, both queer/androphilic, (both basically born more or less with the personalities and physiques of straight girls, albeit with penises, but treated as though they were something exceptional for one reason or another..) 

http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/32108/1/chelsea-manning-reflects-on-her-identity-since-convictionAmnesty International UK – In Their Own Words: Chelsea Manninghttp://www.aaronswartzday.org/transcript-amnesty/
Oh and you know that other guy, famous computer hacker and snitch Adrian Lamo, he was also diagnosed with ASD, was self-confirmed bisexual and his ex was MTF..

Basically it's pretty obvious from where I'm sitting that ASD = 'disorder of sexual differentiation', both of the brain and of the body, it's just expressed in various different forms in different people, gender, sexuality, or just having crossed over brain modules, personality and corresponding interests. 
(It also kind of makes you wonder how many straight cis-girls are actually as smart as Daniel Tammet, or at least could be, but never get the same kind of publicity or opportunities, because their personalities and natural behaviour already perfectly suit their genitalia, so they are just regular girls and no one cares to give them as many tests, which is kinda sad when you think about it..)

So the different generations, perhaps those over 30 vs. those under 30, have very different attitudes to these things, yet somehow this seems to be an open question needing further study... I guess those scientists have to get their funding stream from somewhere, but it seems kind of ridiculous.

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 10 times.

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#87 [url]

Apr 16 17 4:23 AM

But many people with conditions on the Autism spectrum have no gender dysphoria.... I am happy and willing to listen to the stories of people with both... but I get a bit tired of people who try and redefine other peoples situations so as to help them understand their own...... Everyone has a right for consideration, even if they are unique, so I don't see a need for it

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#88 [url]

Well it's a great deal harder to get from 'I really want to be the opposite sex, wouldn't that be cool for a while', to 'I really am already the opposite sex, and I want to be treated as such full time, and not unduly questioned about it, I'm right, you're wrong', especially considering just how difficult that is to arrange. One is like a 'passing fad', the other is seen as utter desperation / pathological, particularly considering the era you are born in, what your parents are like, what you are potentially capable of, and how other people treat you. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4369636/The-London-lawyer-s-changed-gender-THREE-times.html

For me born in the 80s it's a very different proposition than for those born in the 90s, http://www.teenvogue.com/story/michelle-hendley-transgender-actress-interview
and it's still so much simpler for me, if not my parents to accept, (I mean, I literally held his hand and let my dad actually die beside me, rather than ever tell him), than it was for those born in the 50s and 60s when it seemed there was virtually no one else around like you, except probably in only in secret if you chose the go to the right clubs or read the right zines, well except for roughly one really famous case a decade getting a lot of negative press, and you could literally be put in prison for having the wrong kind of sex, or diagnosed with schizophrenia for having the wrong kind of behaviour.

I was probably only 16 when I watched this with my mum:
which was only a couple of years after it had started to really hit me, and I don't know exactly what went through her mind when seeing it, though she has mentioned it again recently, but Jackie had obviously made the tradeoff that for her it was even worth risking her life by becoming a sex worker, in order just to be a girl, where for me, well it just wasn't.

Maybe I'm really weak/lazy/greedy but I was just not going to give up the kind of security of potentially getting a 'real job' just to have an active sex life, so I chose career over sex life, despite being sorely tempted, but when you are that age, knowing what you'll be risking, you think 'with enough will power you can just get through these things', and you don't ever have to 'go there' if you don't want to, I mean you know you really want the feelings but not the consequences of what you'd have to give up to get them, so you just go off and visit Fictionmania or whatever instead, until one day, maybe even 15-20 years later, that just isn't enough any more, and literally nothing you do can make you feel any better, and the world comes crashing down around you, but you have to just keep going, because it seems like so many people are depending on you to do it..

With enough scientific evidence and greater visibility hopefully other people won't feel compelled to make those kinds of decisions as teenagers, or feel they have so much to hide. So being almost a decade younger, someone like Michelle Hendley is actually able to do a 'real job' just openly being the girl she actually is, though still being seen as quite an oddity being one of the few trans actresses playing trans roles, but it's getting better, and the more older / more successful people that are willing to be visible too, the quicker it gets better for the younger ones.

I suppose I want to do two things. There are a lot of young people diagnosed 'with ASD' who are really just queer/gender variant but don't know it, as they have dissociated, so haven't connected what they really feel on the inside, with the idea of their having actual 'dysphoria', https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/09/that-was-dysphoria-8-signs-and-symptoms-of-indirect-gender-dysphoria/, which for a lot of people (including me) is non-obvious, as in one sense it's just a feeling of general/pervasive discomfort with your life/body/social situation, which they of course attribute to their 'having ASD', which is really kind of circular reasoning, but it keeps them locked in one place.

How do you know you have 'dysphoria', until you know what it's like to not have 'dysphoria' any more? 

The changes she felt were immediate — and not just physically. “It was like I had been an old TV set that wasn’t focused. You had to play with the antennas a bit,” Michelle says. “But once I was on the regimen, the fuzz cleared, and everything fell into place. I felt more at ease in my own body.” At the same time, she was 20 and going through puberty all over again: “We’d be watching a movie, and I’d start bawling,” she says. “And my friend would be like, ‘What are you crying about?’ And I’d be like, ‘I literally don’t know!’ But it adjusts, and you get used to it.”

How can you possibly get any treatment for your 'dysphoria' without proving that you have it?
What other way can you prove you are neurologically gender variant enough, and so probably aren't feeling at your best without treatment, except by there being an actual scientific test of a measurable physical condition? 
So why isn't that a good thing for there to be? Call it 'autism spectrum' if you have to, but at least it's something we can now agree is physical and we can measure..
I mean, I went and had an actual chromosome test when I was about 16, because I was 'slow developing', and went to a clinical psychologist when I was 19, and though I talked about my depression and crossdressing as a teenager, not mentioning 'AGP' because I didn't have the vocabulary for it back then,
Maybe it would have gone something like..

Well you see, I have this problem with my penis.
Well it basically doesn't do anything unless I think about somehow turning into a girl first. 
Yes, it has been doing that for a while.
No, since I was about 14. 
Yes I have tried rubbing it, it doesn't seem to help much..
Well how do I know what it's supposed to feel like? 
Well it's not that great, it just makes my body go all stiff sometimes, and then I just stop rubbing it and relax again.
Well you see, I'm still a virgin, so there haven't exactly been many opportunities for that kind of thing.
People just don't seem to like me that much, so I'm not much of a catch..
Well, what do you suggest?
No, but I don't think I actually like boys that much either..
Well I can't exactly walk someone down the
aisle and say 'I do' if it's not going to work out afterwards..
Well I wanna get married one day, obviously. 
Look, I thought you were supposed to understand things like this..
Well who am I supposed to talk to about it then?

and about all I got from him was "That's just your personality, and you need to come to terms with it", like, there is no viable treatment, go away and try to live your life..

Substantial resolution of these symptoms in a very obvious way upon transitioning, particularly upon initiating HRT 
While this is somewhat of a diagnosis-by-treatment, this is what makes it clear that these difficulties are indeed specifically gender-related, and not due to other conditions. If we’re fortunate, then one way or another, we eventually start to pick up on our own personal hints that lead us in the direction of reconsidering our gender. And at a certain point in the process, we begin to realize that this might be what we’ve been searching for all our lives.

For me, as I transitioned a little, it helped a little. When I presented in a feminine way and took on a feminine identity, I started to come into my own and take shape as a real person. I began to steer my life in a direction that I wanted. It was easier to have goals and things I derived satisfaction from, and this encouraged me to start caring about myself more. I was able to fall in love and have a real relationship for the first time – something I never saw the point of before, and had resigned myself to doing without.
Still, my general sense of discomfort and irritability remained, and it kept making my life difficult. I was tired of feeling bad every single day. But as it turned out, when I transitioned a lot, it helped a lot. Once I started HRT, the effect was immediate: these symptoms totally dissipated. It was such a stark difference, it became clear that what I’d been suffering before likely was indeed physical and chemical in nature. I could tell it had been gender dysphoria, because it just wasn’t there anymore once I received the treatment for gender dysphoria.
Now, I could actually relax – it was so amazing to be truly calm for the first time in my life. And it lasted, and there was no more pain to hide. I could cry and feel good afterward, as if it replenished me rather than draining me of emotion. It was possible to feel things in all their detail and depth and texture, rather than being limited to either numbness or emotional overload. The skin of separation was gone, and life was a breeze: I was just happy, all day, without constantly intrusive thoughts distracting me and separating me from the world. I can truly care about everything I choose to work towards, because it matters now. I’m the normal person I always wanted to be, and I can get on with simply living.

Personally no, I'm not at the happy and carefree stage yet, I'm not even currently on a T blocker, but it's already way better, and I do now know what it can feel like when it feels 'right', and it feels 'amazing', compared to what I've been through most of the rest of my life, and I am not ever going to stop chasing after that feeling again, whatever I look like, and then experiencing it, for as long as possible.

Having no better explanations for their often recurrent/growing severe depression, or being so utterly terrified of the consequences of the potential explanation, they are often driven to utter extremes of behaviour and/or mental torment, of themselves and of others.
and I don't want there to be that many more Elliot Rodgers or Andreas Lubitz either.

Gender Identity Disorder and Schizophrenia: Neurodevelopmental Disorders with Common Causal Mechanisms?


Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 14 times.

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#89 [url]

Xora, for many families, having a trans relative has become the ultimate stigma; almost anything has now become a better diagnosis than that. A lot of these people were probably transphobic from the start, but I suspect many have internalized tranphobia from elsewhere; and it's only when they are confronted with having a child diagnosed with extreme gender dysphoria, that they invest mentally and emotional in the issue at all. For many, this quickly becomes more about them, than their child. How they deal with it will certainly imply something about society views them as parents.

Transphobic interest groups such as fundamentalist Christians and TERFS will be quick to say that any support of a trans trajectory is equivalent to child abuse. It is therefore the parent's responsibility to search for a different medical opinion. If the parents are inclined to listen to such people, this will become the key filter through which they will view the situation.

The transphobs are now equating trans to being a "cult" and an "ideology", that has become "trendy". They say that the medical and behavioral health practitioners have gotten caught up in political correctness, and are now pushing every child who is even slightly gender non conforming into a transition path. The transphobs don’t really believe that such a thing as a trans identity even exists.

“Your child is not trans. They have some other mental disorder, and are just confused about how who they are. Do everything you can to stop them, and eventually they will out-grow of it.”

In that regard, any alternative diagnosis is considered an improvement. For many, being even gay or gender non-conforming is considered a big step up from doing things to their bodies. The autism spectrum has become the alternative diagnosis of choice. For them, it invalidates the trans identity.

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#90 [url]

See, I don't really see why one thing needs to 'invalidate' the other.
They are essentially two different sets of vocabulary for describing the same physical/biological phenomena.

One is 'what does this look like from the outside, from the perspective of parents, teachers, clinicians', and the other is 'what does this feel like from the inside, from the perspective of a child sucessfully growing up to live as normal and happy and dare I say 'productive' a life as possible'. Once you see how the two perspectives so closely marry up, how can you still claim otherwise?



Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 3 times.

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#91 [url]

"See, I don't really see why one thing 'invalidates' the other.
They are essentially two different sets of vocabulary for describing the same physical/biological phenomena."

Xora, I agree, but in the transphobic world, does that really matter? Any psychological / cognitive condition that can be added to the discussion invalidates the trans identity in the eyes of people who want it to be so:

"My daughter isn't really trans. She is autistic, OCD, ADD, schizophrenic, bi-poplar, etc. That is what is causing her to be "confused" about her gender. That gender stuff is just BS trans ideology".

I'm not suggesting we go super PC here, and ignore other co-existing conditions. But this is the cutting edge talking point of the phobes these days. It is something we are going to need overcome.

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#92 [url]

I do get annoyed at this Trans Myth (yet another sigh) about trans women in STEM and related fields. Given the massive unemployment rate suffered by trans people (at least 4 x the average maybe 6 times) the large numbers forced into the sex industry because there are no alternatives, the high numbers homeless and in extreme poverty (all backed by surveys)...this is BS.

I got into that area, though I was always interested in it I has many alternatives, because it gave me relief from my gender dysphroia. I could go into and stay in 'head space' and not think about things. I was lucky in that sense ..but I also got into a lot of extreme activities as well...so is motorcycling somehow related to being trans? Of course not.
Others from my time and place were not so lucky and they are probably dead.

A small, and it is small, percentage of us got lucky and it helped us 'cope'...for awhile at least.

And I really don't buy an ASD* link. Of course there are trans people who are ASD, but the majority aren't; and the vast majority of ASD people are not trans. This is just another 'they are really anything else but trans' argument by transphobes. If even Zucker couldn't prove a link...and he tried hard with one of dodgiest definitions of ASD I have ever seen, then there is none.

*In fact I am skeptical about many diagnoses of ASD. And I am skeptical about the tools they use to diagnose it as I strongly suspect there are many false positives ...and also false negatives.

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#93 [url]

Well, like there is early onset androphilic MTF transsexualism, and late onset gynephilic MTF transsexualism, (both are probably autogynephilic, truth be told), there is 'autism' which is really socially debilitating, and there is 'Asperger's' which is not so much debilitating, depending on your upbringing, and often combined with poor gross motor skills, yet sometimes supremely high IQs, slowed social development, and strong interest in STEM, classic little professors etc. http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2016/07/10/the-new-retards/
These are actually probably very different biological phenotypes that have been tied together by Lorna Wing, and gathered under one umbrella for research purposes, which probably doesn't serve us well to be lumped in with other people with very different life prospects, as it's just really confusing.

And it turns out that there is a significant overlap between the Asperger's type socially retarded 'boys', and the late onset gynephilic transsexuals, the one often gradually becomes the other, between 30 and 50 years old, and the 'hip' hi-tech companies like Microsoft and Google already know this, and don't mind, and actually have provisions in place for people like us should we need them, as they've seen quite a lot of us over the years, and it pays to let people transition on the job rather than just burning out and quitting.
The early onset androphilic transsexuals are the ones who wind up being sex workers, which is very sad and pretty horrible, and I wish there was something I could do to make the world less horrible for them, because I do sort of know how they feel, while the late onset ones are less obviously gender variant, more creative and more mentally able to dissociate from their emotions, and can sometimes manage on till their 50s or later without breaking down.

There's a lot of evidence that TS women can be divided broadly into two groups. Those that transition early, and those that transition late. The ones that transition early tend to be androphillic (attracted to men), and to have bodies that are gracile, easily transformed by hormones into pretty girls. They tend to have difficulty "passing" as boys from an early age.
The ones that transition late may be andro or gynephillic (attracted to men, women, or either), and are less gracile, and have no difficulty "passing" as men. They even sometimes have difficulty "passing" as women after treatment, and this appears independant of physical appearance, more a matter of body language and instinctive behaviour than anything else. They also tend to be good at engineering and science, with both the linear/analytic/deductive male-typical thinking and parallel/creative/intuitive female-typical thinking modes available to them. TS men follow the same broad categories (swapping boys for girls, and andro- for gynaphillia), but with one exception: they all tend to transition early.

I guess Caitlin Jenner counts as late onset too, and she's gynephilic, as is Laura Jane Grace. (And I'd personally put Ozzy Osbourne in this category too, but he's too screwed up from drugs to really care what he is any more..)

I'm sceptical about many of the increasing diagnosis of ASD too, seems like a lot of 'oh my child is really sensitive, he needs special treatment, oh I don't know to handle him, oh he's a genius' etc. etc. which usually isn't true, except for people like Daniel Tammet where it is.
I'd happily dump the whole ASD thing and just go with the TS thing, as that seems to fit my actual biological situation better, but I kind of needed the one to make me stop and think about my life and personality and beliefs enough, and to find out enough about other people in my situation, to properly get a handle on the other. Maybe I'm one of the small percentage that got lucky, I was never violent, never took drugs, and as my family never kicked me out or pushed me into too many situations I couldn't cope with so I survived but didn't thrive.

So maybe lots of the most deeply closeted gynephilic transsexuals are actually just fine, and are just hiding out in their male bodies being real jerks, and pretending to have a new-fangled type of 'autism' so they can screw other people around and hog a lot of the best jobs in tech, but I've seen far too many examples of the two going together for it just to be a straight coincidence.
Whatever makes someone a late onset MTF, is also what gives someone the Asperger's profile of engineering skills and personality.
Like here is yet one more, both Asperger's and TS, who very closely describes both how I think and how I feel, and how I've developed gradually over time..
http://flippac.org/talks/aspie.pdf https://flippac.dreamwidth.org/3617.html
She is one of me, I am one of her, though I wasn't sent to a special school, nor trained to be much of a leader, I don't believe in 'rape culture', and I seem to have slightly more ambition than she does, but maybe so far not much more ability to actually execute on it, which is admittedly very frustrating.

And no I don't think I have an IQ of 180 like Audrey Tang, but I am one of the people with the really big heads like her, and I can be pretty good some of the time..

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 1 time.

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#94 [url]

You lost me at: "Well, like there is early onset androphilic MTF transsexualism, and late onset gynephilic MTF transsexualism"

Because there are gynephilc early transitioning trans women (according to Dr Zucker no less about 50%) and there are 'late transitioning androphiliac trans women too ....
Last survey I saw showed that of trans adults roughly a third each were male attracted, female attracted and bisexual and their sexual orientation had nothing whatsoever to do with the age they transitioned at.

There is no, repeat no proven link between ASD and trans people...not even DR Zucker managed to prove that as he admitted.

There is no such thing, and never has been, 'late onset' trans people ....no more than there are 'late onset' gay men or ''late onset' lesbians.
There are just those who hid in the closet and suppressed their feelings because of societal hostility.

And bringing up AGP when it has been endlessly debunked by so many, including on this very forum is just absurd and shows you either have not .read through any of the articles and posts here or you are a transphobic bigot.

You can quote the transphobic Toronto school of sexologists and their acolytes (like Michael Bailey*) but don't expect to have any credibility whatsoever since every psych and medical org that deals with trans people does not accept Blanchard's rubbish one little bit as it is, at best, pseudoscience, no more accurate than what the Catholic Church says about trans people.

*Who stated: "WPATH has become an egregious organization that makes the world worse in the name of making the world better for the transgendered. "
Think that through for a bit and work out what he means... Which is 'make the world better by making it worse for transgender people'.

If you want to quote people like them who have a stated clear agenda to eliminate trans people and increase societal hostility towards them, don't expect any credibility whatsoever and don't be surprised that you just get lumped into the anti-trans TERF/religious extremist/other trans haters/etc grouping and treated as such..

The days of trans people rolling over when people attack them are OVER, attack us and we fight back..hard.

"and I wish there was something I could do to make the world less horrible for them"...well stop spouting transphobic lies and bigotry then...

As for this "but I am one of the people with the really big heads like her", oh my is there no end to the absurdity...I have a small head and I have an IQ of 140 ..there is no, none, zero correlation between head size, brain size and intelligence. By that argument women are stupider than men because, on average, their brain size is smaller....

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#95 [url]

I'm not spouting transphobic lies and bigotry. I'm only mentioning 'AGP' in terms of if being a phenomena, part of the puzzle, a physical reaction of my body to certain, mostly purely mental stimuli, which it is, which is not 'transphobic', it's just a fact, and it obviously applies to lots of other people, else sites like Fictionmania wouldn't exist with tens of thousands of examples of such stimuli. It's existence doesn't need 'debunking' by anyone, it's why I'm even here. What needs 'debunking' is the idea that such a condition is purely a consequence of trauma or conditioning, is a choice, or is something that could have been avoided with better parenting or something, and not a product of our underlying biology/neurology.

Honestly, it's sometimes like the earlier transitioning trans women don't want to be associated with the later transitioning, often STEM working, less 'gracile' people, who perhaps have previously been diagnosed with ASD by their parents, because 'those people are just really confused trans-wannabes with autism who haven't really suffered like we have', which is probably just as 'phobic' of something or other. We maybe suffered in different ways, because we only had half a clue what was going on with us through our teens and even twenties, and so weren't in a position to advocate for our 'needs', or anyone elses, and so ended up being exploited by others who took advantage of our obvious social confusion in various ways, mostly because people like us don't even realise how far above the norm we often are, and having been subjected to all kinds of torments growing up, then don't like sticking our neck out as adults. We perhaps think like men in terms of linear/analytical thinking, but don't think like men in terms of personality.

Generally you can’t really interview for it. You just have to put them in front of a computer and tell them to do something that should be too hard for them. Not surprisingly we’ve “automated” that process a bit at our company so we find that about 2/3rds of the people we recruit into our “startup garage” turn our to become employable engineers with a little time and experience. It’s hardly scientifically qualified because people are all individuals. I’ve seen great geniuses with brilliant minds and perfectly normal social skills ruin their careers with drugs and I’ve seen some of the most socially dysfunctional people you could imagine turn into engineering wunderkinds seemingly out of nothing. No training, no school, no support, we just put a machine in front of them and told them to solve an impossible problem and… they do it!I remember one many years ago that we poached out of Nabisco where he was employed to automate their french-fry making machine. As Asperger’s stereotypes go, you couldn’t possibly get a better real-life match. This guy was totally incapable of eye-contact, he practically ran from any kind of social dialog that involved conflict or a casual disagreement of opinion, he was a total disaster at interviewing.

Q: Can you code?
A: Not really
Q: What do you do for Nabisco
A: I fix the french-fry machine when it breaks
Q: What do you mean “Fix” it?
A: The software crashes
Q: So you reboot it?
A: No I disassembled the code and patched the instructions in assembly to bypass the faults that were causing the machine to stall.
Q: Who taught you how to do that?
A: It’s not hard, I just looked up the processor architecture and wrote out the binary patch in a hex editor and copied it into the ROM.

Years later the guy is happily married, has kids, still works at his dream job on World of Warcraft making a fraction of what he’s worth but he would never dream of subjecting himself to the social stress of asking for a raise or interviewing around. I often coached him on how to negotiate for better pay but he just says “I don’t need any more”. I saw him change jobs a couple times after he got married which is how it usually goes for these guys. They don’t care about their pay but their wives like to see them advance professionally and “encourage” them to job shop occasionally. They code all day at work and when they go home, they code something else for fun.

I'm saying I do support the Michelle Hendleys, and the Chelsea Mannings, the Phillipa Cowderoys (who on the one hand self-taught herself from VB1 through C++ to Haskell and beyond.., including writing something later used by https://galois.com/, which is kind of one of those really high-tech defence consultancy companies, while still considering herself 'disabled', because of a lack of self-organisation), and even the poor Chris-chans, who stayed at home creating fan-fiction comics about Pokemon, all saying they are women if they want to do so, which is hardly being transphobic.
ASD is obviously a 'disorder of sexual differentiation', of both the body, and of the brain, with lots of different potential outcomes for the individuals so affected, including often working in STEM, and being transgender, in both a MTF and FTM directions, at a much higher proportion than with the non-ASD population, there is your proven connection, read the links from the earlier parts of the thread to see other aspects of it, other blind men looking at different parts of the elephant.

The structure of the developing face also corresponds to the structure of the developing brain:

But that's just a study from 2012, when for the people involved, well we've known about this for much longer.
Like people have been discussing it, and sharing their life stories with each other, over here since 2001.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TransgenderPDD/info, which is about as long as Yahoo Groups has existed,
and before that they were all using USENET groups instead.

So still saying 'No proven link' = bullshit, whatever Zucker does or doesn't think, I don't care, and I don't know if that's driven by ASD-phobia or Trans-phobia,
or just a wilful failure to see what is right in front of you. Just what would constitute proof to you then?

I'm not saying cis-women or more 'gracile' trans-women aren't smart for having smaller heads either, it's sort of a different kind of smart, white matter vs grey matter and so forth. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.htm They don't need the raw brain volume because they make it up with a greater density of interconnections, but that also means they don't think in exactly the same ways either.

The people who are actually born half and half and with bits of both kinds of neural structures, often end up 'broken' in some way socially, and sometimes end up being way smarter than those of either gender extreme, and do cool shit like build computers, or write both great and not so great software, just for the fun of it, though they are also often also socially isolated and depressed, and they don't know if they are male or female, or start out in life thinking they are one thing and then very gradually figure out they aren't, as they eventually figure out that they feel they are slightly different bits of both, which is actually what they are, and that situation has been called 'late onset', by other people, and I guess if we can make it through to our 30s or later without either having sex or killing ourselves, or even declaring our intentions to those around us, it's pretty late by most other people's standards.

So, I won't get to be small and pretty like Blaire White, coz I left it too late and grew to 6 foot+, but I do have pretty tiny hands like that,
coz that's a bit of me, like part of my brain, that didn't get enough of the masculinising hormones before birth.


Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 6 times.

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#96 [url]

" I'm only mentioning 'AGP' in terms of if being a phenomena,"
Nope as Blanchard defined it, it doesn't exist. Sexual fantasies involving your gender and physicality are very common, across all genders, cis, intersex and trans and all sexualities gay, straight or bisexual (not asexual of course).
I will repeat what I always say: I was by today's standards a fairly typical trans kid (with very high physical GD), what sexual fantasies did you expect me to have when I hit puberty? It sure wasn't being a big burly hairy bloke rogering a little blond woman.... And I never once had anything even remotely like an AGP fantasy as defined by Blanchard.

Blanchard's own results disprove his hypothesis....and no other study has proven it and many have disproven it. Every. and I mean every psych, medical, etc org involved with trans people REJECT his model. WPATH rejects it outright, for the same reasons I have mentioned ...it has been NOT proven and in fact disproven by many.

The only people that push it are transphobes (Toronto school, religious right orgs, TERFs, etc) and some self hating non transitioned part timers (or just sheer fantasists), where for some reason it is more emotionally comforting to think of themselves as straight cis men with a fetish, rather than deal with their gender issues.

Remember according to Blanchard (and Bailey) there are NO trans women, only men with different sexual issues. Male attracted ones have a fetish about straight cis men, female attrtcatced have a fetish about having a female body. According to them there is NO such thing as an internal gender identity ..which is illogical since how can you have a sexual orientation without a gender identity? Also they are a homophobic as all heck. gay men all talk funny and are feminine.... Inferior to those good old violent cis heterosexual men of course.
It gets worse, when pressed about how they define being 'masculine; or 'feminine'; they resort to violence...being 'masculine' is all about violence, being 'feminine; is all about wanting babies....yes they are sexist...totally.

Your stuff reads like it comes straight from Bailey's anti-trans TMWWBQ: early male attracted trans women are 'more attractive' and all ‘male attracted’ ...and all that tosh.
Again all totally disproven by the actual facts.

And the ages of male attracted, female attracted and bisexual trans people is converging (not that they were that much different anyway) as transition is easier now for younger people. In fact there is no difference for trans adolescents now and they all identify, come out and transition at about the same ages now. And I’ll defy anyone to tell them apart physically.

And there is no relationship in the looks of trans women and their sexual orientation or age of transition (except age related, older people look older.).

The only trans women that show consistent differences are those who started on puberty blockers followed by HRT during adolescence. For the rest it is a crap shoot as to how testosterone will affect you, some a bit, some a lot and I know several trans women who have spent a lot of money on FFS to correct that. The single biggest average difference to cis women is height, and I know a lot of small transitioned trans women…many female attracted too.


Have you ever met any trans women? If your information about trans people is coming from TMWWBQ then I think you need to expand your reading list and maybe read what trans people themselves say. Start here with the 2015 USTS survey: http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS%20Full%20Report%20-%20FINAL%201.6.17.pdf

Just to put a nail in the coffin of that canard of about ‘late onset’ (so beloved by Blanchard and Bailey) the survey showed 81% felt they were transgender before 16. 94% before 21 and only 2 % by 26 and older…..Age of coming out and transitioning was older, due to social prejudice of course, though that is declining rapidly in recent times..

"sometimes like the earlier transitioning trans women don't want to be associated with the later transitioning, often STEM working, less 'gracile' people"
Nonsense, I know a lot of young trans women and they are fine with transitioned older trans women and men (let's not forget them since they are 50% of the trans population)...but they will express annoyance at people spouting nonsense about trans people and if one mentions AGP to them they will just walk away from them thinking they are idiots at best and transphobes at worst..

I am a trans women who transitioned 4 years ago (that’s my real photo by the way and not photoshopped) with many trans friends and very active in the activist scene and there is not the slightest bit of correlation physically between those who are male attracted, female attracted, bisexual or asexual (age adjusted of course) .... None. Might as well argue gay men are better looking than straight ones....

That idea came from Michael Bailey with his 'scientific ' sample of about 5 trans women he met at a gay bar (and misrepresented).

You keep assuming that all trans women are the same as your very narrow and limited personal experience, you think you have ASD symptoms then every trans women has it...sorry extrapolating form a sample of one doesn't cut it.. And nothing could be further from the truth, we are a very diverse lot from an incredible range of backgrounds and all with unique histories.
You can only talk about yourself and that is it, anything else requires you to be backed up peer reviewed research.

And I repeat if you keep quoting debunked transphobic nonsense exactly as people like the TERFs do, you WILL be classified as a transphobe.

I have to ask, have you transitioned (or are planning to)? If you are part time do you ever go out in public as a woman, to shops, restaurants, etc?

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#97 [url]

How can I be a 'transphobe' when I'm saying I'm transgender myself, that doesn't make any sense.
That I'm scared of people like me? That I'm always telling people like me that they aren't really what they are claiming to be?
I'm doing neither.

I'm pretty much consistently saying the opposite, (albeit with admitedly somewhat outdated terminology sometimes, this stuff moves pretty fast).
I'm pretty much saying that more people are actually transgender than most people think, far more than ever used to go public with it, more even than are probably entirely consciously aware of it themselves.
I'm even saying if more people were less scared of being themselves then we wouldn't have people doing things like crashing a plane full of 150 innocent passengers into a mountain, or whatever, which is probably something you'd rather want to distance yourself from. So I'm now that scary someone promoting such a 'pathogenic meme' at our oh so vulnerable children I suppose. (Who maybe wouldn't be as vulnerable if it weren't for the often false beliefs of their parents..)

So I actually agree with stuff like this..

And stuff like this is just funny.

No, I haven't formally transitioned, yes I am tentatively planning to, now after 3+ years of waiting lists, I've passed the gatekeepers or whatever but I'm only ~6 weeks into HRT, which actually seems to help, quite a lot, at least in terms of stress levels. No I haven't gone out in public while attempting to look explicitly feminine or changed any of my identification, can't that wait another year?
But as I don't seem to pass well as either very male or female, coz I'm kind of stuck in the middle,
So I basically just try to avoid sticking out too much, and don't have sex at all, which is admitedly frustrating, and I try to do the best work I can, yes sort of in STEM though I can't exactly call myself a qualified 'engineer', which is not a myth, I've been employed since I was 19, and I've written quite a lot of stuff from scratch, and made other people a fair amount of money.
I don't have that much to show for it personally, apart from a large collection of books and several generations of old computers and parts thereof, coz I'd rather be reading and writing stuff than keeping a close eye on my bank account.
So far I think I'd rather do it as a gradual drift towards the female end of the scale over a couple of years, so as not to shock anyone too much.
So far only people at my work know, people at my church know, people where I live know, people I go on holiday with know, and my family knows, and otherwise I'm in a fairly isolated location that doesn't have much of an active LGBT scene.

OK, so maybe I'm a bit scared of people who I think are like me, or at least people that I think I want to be like, telling me that I don't actually qualify to be one of them, for one reason or another, perhaps because they think I don't have the right opinions to be one of the club. That kind of thing seems to happen to me a lot, wherever I go.

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