#101 [url]

Apr 26 17 9:39 AM

Monique wrote:

April wrote:The transphobs are now equating trans to being a "cult" and an "ideology", that has become "trendy". They say that the medical and behavioral health practitioners have gotten caught up in political correctness, and are now pushing every child who is even slightly gender non conforming into a transition path. The transphobs don’t really believe that such a thing as a trans identity even exists.
 

Problem is there is at least some truth to it. 20 years ago, trans wasn't a political issue and there was no "TQ" in LGBTQ. Then the social justice warrior left approbriated it and made "trans" a cause of theirs. Consequently, the fundamentalist Christian right (unfortunately also spilling over into the radical right and what's now called "redpillers" etc) has to attack it, turning trans into a battlefield. It's all very unfortunate.

Trannie stuff used to be about glitter, champagne and ostrich feathers. I wish I could have stayed in the 80's. image


Monique, I must have missed that previous open and wonderful era for trans people (much sarcasm intended). Blaming the trans social movement for evegelical and right wing transphobia is like blaming 1960s civil rights protesters for getting themselves killed for speaking out against segregation. The trans community is tiny and very weak in comparison to the rest of the LGBTQ. It's only through a broader fight has things moved forward at all. Until now, this have been limited to just the most urban parts of America. I can feel somewhat safe in a diverse urban environement, but go outside any of those areas, and the views on most social issue haven't changed much at all in 50 years, and those views include the most vial beliefs about the trans. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be trans and live in such a community. 

Yes, I do believe that there has been a pushback of sorts by the evangelicals and other social right wingers. For most of the last half century there has been a ongoing culture war. The preachers seem to need a never ending battle with the forces of darkness to keep people in the pews and to fill up the collection plates. If a boogyman doesn't exist, they will create one. For a while, that was femininism, and then it becaome gay rights, but the evangelicals ended up losing both of those. They therefore needed a new boogyman, and have found one weak enough to push around with trans people. With Catilyn coming out, as well as the media attention given to trans issues in general, there is suddenly this new awareness that trans people might even exist in "God's countrry". Cue up the preachers, it's time to whip the transphobs into a lather. We trans have how become the new moral panic. We are out to seduce your children, and to weaken American values. That's what's going down now. But we are not going back into the closet so otthers can live in a black and white world.

Quote    Reply   

#102 [url]

May 12 17 5:43 PM

Another quite interesting one here:

How Conversion Therapy Bans Will Trap Transgender Children
http://thefederalist.com/2017/05/11/conversion-therapy-bans-trojan-horse-ensnaring-transgender-children/

I don't entirely agree, obviously this one is coming from the '4thwavenow' type perspective.
I am a bit uneasy of pushing this thing so hard into schools though. Probably only about 1:100 would really benefit from transitioning, and only after serious thought, so why go so hard on the bathroom issue at that age and so forth. With blockers and a zero-tolerance thing on bullying I'm sure the rest could be left till you are 18+ and are really really sure. So maybe I'm siding more with Blaire White on that one.
It's kind of a mess that being on lupron and thus skipping the 'balls dropping' stage of male puberty then makes any potential SRS that much more complicated. You essentially trade off superficial passability above the belt, facial and body hair, maybe brow ridge, Adam's apple, etc. depending on how long you leave it, for eventual half-decent functionality below it.
" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">
The activists do seem to gloss over a lot of the unsolved or as yet unknown potential serious medical complications, it isn't actually all that well understood, and lupron seems to be incredibly expensive to provide as well. Which is cheaper? Lupron at 12-16/18, or more complicated FSF at 25? Which should be funded by the state? 
The government might be expected to help keep you healthy, but it can't be expected to guarantee that you will be conventionally attractive as well. Some people get by on looks, some are expected to use their brains a lot more, some just get trampled on I guess, it's rather Darwinian. 
Basic HRT may be necessary for maintaining mental health, but I'm not really saying things like FSF or breast implants should be provided by the state when they are cosmetic, and SRS may not be necessary or even advisable for most if you could reduce the social stigma of having a mixed sex body as an adult,  but then you are back to 'The Crying Game' type situations. 

Last Edited By: Xora May 12 17 5:58 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#103 [url]

Jun 12 17 1:15 PM

OK, here is another link, from probably a fairly pro-trans activist site, also arguing against using puberty blockers to delay the point at which a decision to hormonally transition or not can be made, as it leaves the child underdeveloped compared to their peer group, both physically and emotionally, and can lead to more long term or life-long problems with the thyroid and with calcium stores etc. http://www.genderparadigm.com/puberty-denial.html

There are lots of things you could read into that, as I guess a version of that is what happens to undiagnosed trans kids who go through the 'wrong' kind of puberty, where the body may mature in the 'wrong' direction, in terms of secondary sexual characteristics, but the brain doesn't mature properly because it is expecting estrogen not testosterone or vice versa, so gets a bit mixed up and the child is left really frazzled, anxious and depressed and not thinking optimally, and maybe at that stage they don't even know why..

So from that perspective maybe it's actually best to be on cross-sex hormones from when you are about 12, rather than waiting till you are 16 or more.

Also, from the new series of 'I am Jazz', when she is informed that due to using testosterone blockers from a young age, she can't now have the typical kind of SRS.
?t=67

Quote    Reply   

#104 [url]

Jun 12 17 1:51 PM

The Crying Game? What did you mean by that?

[url=

I remember this was mentioned in one of this rantasmo's videos as an example of a representation of transgender characters which was sort of porblematic, but with redeeming characters.

Quote    Reply   

#105 [url]

Jun 12 17 3:33 PM

Well it's a long time since I've seen it, and even then it was probably only the end, but soldier guy falls madly in love with the girl, only to discover, when attempting to do the deed, that said girl isn't really a girl down below, and soldier guy gets really upset and I think runs away, and probably throws up or something, and said girl is really upset that despite how much he claimed to love her he still can't see past her deformity. 

I dunno, it was quite a famous scene at the time. 

It's like, if you actually want to do these things, and you want to stay safe, then you kind of need to go the whole way. Probably more self-concious heterosexual people can get over 'I used to have a penis' type situations a bit better than 'I still have a penis' type situations. ;-(

Quote    Reply   

#106 [url]

Jun 12 17 8:04 PM

April wrote:
Monique wrote:

April wrote:The transphobs are now equating trans to being a "cult" and an "ideology", that has become "trendy". They say that the medical and behavioral health practitioners have gotten caught up in political correctness, and are now pushing every child who is even slightly gender non conforming into a transition path. The transphobs don’t really believe that such a thing as a trans identity even exists.
 

Problem is there is at least some truth to it. 20 years ago, trans wasn't a political issue and there was no "TQ" in LGBTQ. Then the social justice warrior left approbriated it and made "trans" a cause of theirs. Consequently, the fundamentalist Christian right (unfortunately also spilling over into the radical right and what's now called "redpillers" etc) has to attack it, turning trans into a battlefield. It's all very unfortunate.

Trannie stuff used to be about glitter, champagne and ostrich feathers. I wish I could have stayed in the 80's. image


Monique, I must have missed that previous open and wonderful era for trans people (much sarcasm intended). Blaming the trans social movement for evegelical and right wing transphobia is like blaming 1960s civil rights protesters for getting themselves killed for speaking out against segregation. The trans community is tiny and very weak in comparison to the rest of the LGBTQ. It's only through a broader fight has things moved forward at all. Until now, this have been limited to just the most urban parts of America. I can feel somewhat safe in a diverse urban environement, but go outside any of those areas, and the views on most social issue haven't changed much at all in 50 years, and those views include the most vial beliefs about the trans. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be trans and live in such a community. 

Yes, I do believe that there has been a pushback of sorts by the evangelicals and other social right wingers. For most of the last half century there has been a ongoing culture war. The preachers seem to need a never ending battle with the forces of darkness to keep people in the pews and to fill up the collection plates. If a boogyman doesn't exist, they will create one. For a while, that was femininism, and then it becaome gay rights, but the evangelicals ended up losing both of those. They therefore needed a new boogyman, and have found one weak enough to push around with trans people. With Catilyn coming out, as well as the media attention given to trans issues in general, there is suddenly this new awareness that trans people might even exist in "God's countrry". Cue up the preachers, it's time to whip the transphobs into a lather. We trans have how become the new moral panic. We are out to seduce your children, and to weaken American values. That's what's going down now. But we are not going back into the closet so otthers can live in a black and white world.

Well, yeah. The "God's own country" kind of America really is a very special and unique place in the western world. Nowhere else will you find people looking for ideological arguments in the Bible.

I didn't mean to say the 80's was a wonderful era for trans people. The point was that trans hadn't been politicized yet. In fact, if you went back to the 70's in this country, you'd find much of the anti-gay and anti-trans sentiments actually originating on the left, as in homosexuality being a typical case of perversion engendered by a bourgeois mentality. If there was anything the progressive left really detested it was glitter, feathers and extravagance. So "unnatural"...

Being on the right myself I find it all quite annoying. There are actual problems conservatives need to go into panic mode about, not clamp down on life-style minorities just because the left is pushing the ersatz ideology of identity politics.

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Jun 12 17 8:13 PM. Edited 3 times.

Quote    Reply   

#107 [url]

Jun 13 17 8:23 AM

That's because "glitter, feathers and extravagance" send a signal to the brain that people better prepare for survial mode because the gays and trans are going to bring down civilization with too many musical extravaganzas!! Variations in people exist because nature exist! And Nature doesn't care! Nature never cared!!  This is why politics don't work here.  Personal values and nature are not the same thing, however, the beastial brain in human beings are not prepared to deal with the unfamiliar (gender and sexual variants among them). 

That's why I'm particularly interested in conservative value-holders who are also sexual and gender minorities. 

Now, this thread is about autism......................

Socialization and communication are challenges to the autist.  Is there a correlation between not knowing yourself and others, and being transgender?

Last Edited By: lal2828 Jun 13 17 8:28 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   

#108 [url]

Jun 13 17 9:19 AM

There have been times where I have thought that I am an extreme outier in this forum. While many here have suggested that they believe they fall somewhere on the autism spectrum, my experience seems radically different. I tend to believe that I have very strong awareness and understanding of myself, and that is something that has actually come out in a number of psychological tests I have taken over the years. I am also very very empathetic. I literally feel physical pain when others are hurting.

Although I was somewhat socially awkward in my youth, I can attribute a lot of that to being highly repressed, and that has been something that I largely outgrew as I got older. And my social life has just exploded in transition, as I now have the freedom to express myself.

While I hesitate to universalize my experience, I often wonder whether much of what is interpreted as autism spectrum in parts of the trans community, is really just the manifestations of being repressed. But with that all said, I have met some late transitioners through a support group, who even deep into transition, seem to fit very well with a lot autism spectrum sterotypes,.

Quote    Reply   

#109 [url]

Jun 13 17 11:05 AM

Hyper-sensitivity as well as hypo-sensitivity, which seem contrary to each other, are all part of the autism spectrum.   I would suspect that the hyper-sensitive ones feel far enough into their "inner selves" as well as the feelings of others.  Being able to feel too much can make a person withdraw into themselves to not take any more stimuli.  Perhaps that's how some autists seem withdrawn and not feeling anything. 

Quote    Reply   

#110 [url]

Jun 13 17 11:34 AM

Well that's kind of what I think, it's not so much that we don't know what we want, we do know what we want, we just know we don't want to face the consequences of being what we are and doing what we want, so we invest a lot of energy in doing the opposite of what we want, or at least in not doing what we want, but depending on our level of social intuition and acting ability may or may not be able to pull it off very effectively. No one should be expected to have to try to live out their entire lives double-thinking every word and motion, it's just too exhausting to be worth it.

So you have a bunch of older people trying very very hard to be what they aren't, and a lot of them just come off as really awkward, and often remain awkward for decades, and miss out on a lot of the life they could have been living, but so many of the neurotypicals seem to think that an entire lifetime of being really stressed and awkward is somehow an improvement on being a open transsexual, at least for how it possibly might reflect back on them, regardless of how it makes us feel.

My child is just 'disabled', not a sexual invert, it's not my fault, I did everything I could.. and so forth. I mean, just look at all the comments on the Jazz Jennings YouTube video, so many people saying her parents actually letting her be the girl that she so clearly naturally is, is actually child abuse, because they are just buying into her delusion, feeding her synthetic hormones, and leaving her sterile.

Who is is that's supposed to have 'empathy' in that situation? I think her parents are probably doing a really good job, except perhaps in terms of all the publicity they are exposing her to, but it's kind of a story that needs to be lived in detail by someone in the public eye, so that other people can better understand the difficulties involved.

So I don't know, I would say that I'm hyper-sensitive to others potential disapproval, but, without HRT I'm not that aware of others or even my own emotions. So no, I'm not empathetic a lot in real life, I'm tired, anxious and often seething with rage internally, but I learned early on how to keep that bottled up so I try very hard not to show it.
I'm often still at that sort of teenage 'I hate my life' stage, even 20 years down the line.

How do we get through to other people that this stuff is not psychological, it's more biochemical, but we really need to do this stuff as teenagers, not as adults, and it's more like child cruelty to not let us be natural than it is cruelty to let us?

Quote    Reply   

#111 [url]

Jun 13 17 11:40 AM

Jen, I tend to agree with your comments here, but the autistic spectrum people I have known are as you say very "withdrawn". I always felt rather extroverted. I was always trying to be at the center of the action, and yet I often felt inadequate in regards to that objective. My entire life has been a search for formula that would put me at the middle of things.But until I transitioned, I was always trying to do that as a guy, and things just seemed out sync for me doing it that way. It is just way easier for me to live what I feel by doing it all by a different set of gender rules.

Quote    Reply   

#112 [url]

Jun 13 17 12:04 PM

April wrote:
There have been times where I have thought that I am an extreme outier in this forum. While many here have suggested that they believe they fall somewhere on the autism spectrum, my experience seems radically different. I tend to believe that I have very strong awareness and understanding of myself, and that is something that has actually come out in a number of psychological tests I have taken over the years. I am also very very empathetic. I literally feel physical pain when others are hurting.

Although I was somewhat socially awkward in my youth, I can attribute a lot of that to being highly repressed, and that has been something that I largely outgrew as I got older. And my social life has just exploded in transition, as I now have the freedom to express myself.

While I hesitate to universalize my experience, I often wonder whether much of what is interpreted as autism spectrum in parts of the trans community, is really just the manifestations of being repressed. But with that all said, I have met some late transitioners through a support group, who even deep into transition, seem to fit very well with a lot autism spectrum sterotypes,.

April, most of what you wrote here describes my experiences and beliefs. I'm not nor have  I ever been autistic. I believe that the repression of our true selves may lead to the symptoms of autism and/or the dysphoria that dimminishes when we come to accept our transgender selves.

Since accepting myself I am no longer introverted.

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

Quote    Reply   

#113 [url]

Jun 13 17 1:40 PM

Well exactly, but how do you get to that stage of not being so repressed when you are young?
Firstly you have to consciously understand what makes you different, then you have to decide to change your manner of expression, then you have to find yourself a community where it's OK to be different, and it may still take you years to relax enough to properly come into your own.

But these kids are still living under really strict/worried parents, so to start with it's like "Everything I do or say seems to be 'wrong' and I don't understand why" which causes withdrawal. Then the parents respond to the withdrawal by getting the child an autism diagnosis, which leads to all kinds of therapies, which reinforces to the child that they are biologically 'broken' in some obscure way, which leads to either more withdrawal or superficial feigned compliance with somewhat stilted interactions, which reinforces the parents belief that the child is somehow permanently disabled.

Then when they do eventually start to say they are actually trans, the 4thwavenow contingent moves in telling the parents that that is just a common delusion that a lot of children 'with autism' seem to develop in their mid-teens, and they need to be protected from those kinds of dangerous memes spread by websites like Tumblr, and strongly discouraged from getting any help or taking things any further, and the parents need to hold fast in their beliefs until the child hopefully eventually 'desists'.
https://4thwavenow.com/2017/06/05/adrift-on-the-river-trans/

It's ages before the child has enough independence and financial resources to force the issue, if ever.

Last Edited By: Xora Jun 13 17 3:32 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#114 [url]

Jun 13 17 2:40 PM

Xora, I believe you summed it up all very well here. When you live under somebody else’s roof, you end up having to live by their rules. Many of those parents have to deal with highly transphobic environments where having a transitioning child becomes a reflection of their parenting. This is not only about the one child, but the reputation of the entire family. The parent’s panic here becomes the need to which organizations like 4th Wave sell their snake oil. Their selling points are relatively straight forward:

1. This trans thing is all just trend, and really doesn’t exist.
2. The medical professionals who want to help your child to transition are all quacks with ulterior motives.
3. Anything is better than being trans.
4. You child is not trans but rather autistic, OCD, bi polar, schizophrenic (fill in the blank, anything is better than being trans).

Deep down, I believe a lot of these parents actually know that their child is trans, but they are hoping they can buy enough time so some inertia builds in another direction

Quote    Reply   

#115 [url]

Jun 13 17 2:41 PM

April wrote:
Jen, I tend to agree with your comments here, but the autistic spectrum people I have known are as you say very "withdrawn". I always felt rather extroverted. I was always trying to be at the center of the action, and yet I often felt inadequate in regards to that objective. My entire life has been a search for formula that would put me at the middle of things.But until I transitioned, I was always trying to do that as a guy, and things just seemed out sync for me doing it that way. It is just way easier for me to live what I feel by doing it all by a different set of gender rules.

 
April,

The autism spectrum is very broad.  A challenge in sensory processing, hyper and hypo, is just one of the traits.  The others are language challenges and learning issues (high-functioning/low-functioning IQs).  I suspect the guys you met fit the common autists (the withdrawn ones).  We often come across these kids in our schools, but the extroverted ones can still have unusual sensitivity traits and higher-than-average cognitive (learning) abilities, high functioning autists they are known.  
 

Quote    Reply   

#116 [url]

Jun 13 17 3:45 PM

I'm a bit of both. I definitely want to be the centre of attention, or at least I did when I was young, before I had some of that kind of thing bullied out of me, but not really quite so much nowadays, while still looking like I do.
But I also tend to feel so bad and isolated a lot of the time that other people see me as really withdrawn, or at least they definitely used to, I've tried a lot to break out my shell in the last few years, but now I'm afraid I'm just coming off as really bizarre.

It seemed to take quite a high level of estrogen in my system to make me feel really good and totally at home in my body, and syncing up with other people more, so maybe the people you are seeing in your groups who are still rather withdrawn aren't quite on the right dose, if any at all. Presumably some are just going to meetings dressed up, but aren't on HRT, so they maybe just think looking different to others will somehow also make them feel different inside, when I'm not sure it really works that way.

Last Edited By: Xora Jun 13 17 5:09 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#117 [url]

Hmm, I really like this one:
https://www.quora.com/The-internet-is-brainwashing-my-daughter-What-should-I-do/answer/Paula-Roegge?share=f1a4d4ec&srid=XhcB

Not, 'we're really worried about your daughter, we think she must have autism and needs to be sent to a special school or educational program focusing mostly on normalising her social skills'.
More like, 'we think your daughter might actually be or at least want to be a boy, maybe you should broach the subject with her gently'.
None of this, 'oh she has a disability/personality disorder', I'm afraid it's permanent, there's nothing we can do, she's just going to end up a really isolated academic, maybe a professsor specialising in feminism, who is forever complaining about the 'patriarchy'.

This one takes the opposite position, but it is at least more sensitive, well appart from calling it a 'mental disorder'. 
https://www.quora.com/The-internet-is-brainwashing-my-daughter-What-should-I-do/answer/Tabita-Stan?share=ec7f10e3&srid=XhcB

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#118 [url]

lal2828 wrote:
That's because "glitter, feathers and extravagance" send a signal to the brain that people better prepare for survial mode because the gays and trans are going to bring down civilization with too many musical extravaganzas!! Variations in people exist because nature exist! And Nature doesn't care! Nature never cared!!  This is why politics don't work here.  Personal values and nature are not the same thing, however, the beastial brain in human beings are not prepared to deal with the unfamiliar (gender and sexual variants among them). 

That's why I'm particularly interested in conservative value-holders who are also sexual and gender minorities.

Agreed, nature doesn't care. I've never said anything else (which to my mind is actually what makes me a conservative rather than a liberal). And while glitter, feathers and extravagance are the product of civilization, they will probably eventually raise the ire of those who feel compelled to safeguard it from the weakness and decadence within, especially if there are barbarians assembling on the outside. Just another reason to somehow get out of here and leave nature behind, so the bubble of artifice can be safeguarded forever. Some may believe the technological singularity will take care of it. Others might suggest it's rather related to the continual existence of consciousness beyond this material plane.

Whatever the case, I guess what we are all after is the paradise of the autistic. smiley: smile

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique . Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help