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Jun 4 17 3:02 AM

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Hello everyone,let me introduce myself . My name is Ariadne and I am a member of Colour Youth, a youth LGBT activist group located in Athens, Greece.http://www.colouryouth.gr/en/Recently I decided to undertake a project for the group. To be more precise, I will give a presentation about autogyneaphilia and crossdreaming. I am currently doing research trying to understand some basic concepts about autogyneaphilia, but my wish is to go beyond the scientific aspect and find out how crossdreamers, be they cis or trans, feel about it and how they are influenced by the theory's claims.I wish to ask for two things from people on this forum. 1. To tell me what you think is truly important to mention in a presentation about autogynephilia and crossdreaming, 2. to do a written interview with me about the theory. The questions will revolve around how you feel about the theory, how it has influenced you, etc.I understand this is an extremely controversial topic. I also get that sexuality is something very personal and private that should be respected. I just think any presentation on the subject would be incomplete without the perspective of at least a few crossdreamers.I promise that the interview's full content will remain private on my part -you will be, of course, free to do whatever you wish with it. What I will be doing on my part is to quote parts of it (whether said quotations will be anonymous or not is entirely up to you) in my presentation.Feel no hesitation to ask for clarifications if need be.Sincerely yours
Ariadne
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#1 [url]

Jun 4 17 8:19 AM

Hello Ariadne,


I am Lost (I also go by the femme name Vaydra) and I am a 30-something asexual crossdreamer from United States.

That sounds like an interesting project!  Depending on how you plan to go about the project I might be interested in participating.  Maybe send me a PM with the details and the questions you would like to ask?

What I think is most important about Crossdreaming?  I think the most important thing is to listen to those of us who actually experience it.  Many AGP advocates like to try to tell us what we think instead of listening to us.  Should we try and tell people that their ideas are wrong they often either try to tell us we don't know what we are talking about or are lying.  This is part of the problem with the AGP etiology of transgender identity hypothesis and what make it psuedoscience.  AGP theory is unfalsifiable.  

You either fit the mold or you are lying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Falsifiability

Anyway, I hope you find the information you are searching for!




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#2 [url]

Jun 4 17 9:37 AM

Hello Lost,

first of all, thank you very much for responding to my post.

So, let me explain how I plan to present the subject. In regards to autogynaephilia, I want to a. explain some basic ideas of the theory and the history behind them, b. explain why the idea of separating trans women in two strict categories is false and harmful and c. show how the theory is used politically against trans rights, especially by TERFs. My thinking fits very closely to Serano's objections and thoughts, at least based on what I have read from her articles online.

What I do not want to happen through this presentation is to give the audience the impression that there are no people who experience fantasies that go under the crossdreamer label. I don't want to deny the existence of individuals who are motivated in one way or another by those fantasies to transition (or not to). I want the narratives of crossdreaming individuals to be heard and respected just as much as those of trans women (or any other human group really) who have not experienced crossdreaming.

As for the questionnaire, I will post it publicly, so that everyone can see what I want to ask. If anyone wants to answer privately my pm box is always open. If there any questions that cause discomfort then you are free to skip them.

p.s. English is not my native language, so please don't hesitate to ask for any clarifications that may be needed.

01. Introduce yourself to us.
02. When did you first hear about autogynaephilia?
03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?
04. What is your current opinion on autogynaephilia?
05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynaephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?
06. Have you ever discussed autogynaephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions?
07. What do you define as crossdreaming?
08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself?
09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?
10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?
11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?
12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?

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#5 [url]

Jun 4 17 2:21 PM

Good luck with your project; I don't mind contributing by I have one issue which is I contributed something to someone else similar on this forum soon after I joined; A woman said she was doing a project on crossdreamers. She gave me guidance on what she was looking for and I spent a couple of hours writing an account of my cross dreaming.. In return I got...

NOTHING - No Thanks, certainly no idea of what I'd written was useful and no update on how her research went

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#6 [url]

Jun 4 17 8:41 PM

PipX wrote:
Good luck with your project; I don't mind contributing by I have one issue which is I contributed something to someone else similar on this forum soon after I joined; A woman said she was doing a project on crossdreamers. She gave me guidance on what she was looking for and I spent a couple of hours writing an account of my cross dreaming.. In return I got...

NOTHING - No Thanks, certainly no idea of what I'd written was useful and no update on how her research went

Alright, so let me address this. I can promise to give you an update (honestly that is something I paln to do with every participant), to inform you on how the presentation was received, what the audience thought about autogynaephilia and crossdreaming. I hope that maybe we will record the event on camera (but won't be showing the audience's faces). The latter I don't know for a fact yet but I hope this will be the case. I don't have anything more to offer than a promise and I understand if that is not good enough.

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#7 [url]

Jun 5 17 5:14 AM

Ariadne wrote:
p.s. English is not my native language, so please don't hesitate to ask for any clarifications that may be needed.

01. Introduce yourself to us.
02. When did you first hear about autogynaephilia?
03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?
04. What is your current opinion on autogynaephilia?
05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynaephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?
06. Have you ever discussed autogynaephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions?
07. What do you define as crossdreaming?
08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself?
09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?
10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?
11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?
12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?

Well, in my opinion:

Μέχρι στιγμής, τα αγγλικά σας είναι τέλεια.

So far, your english is perfect.  Okay so lets get this started.

1. 

Hi, I am lost247365 but I also go by the femme name Vaydra on this forum.  I am a 34 year old asexual MTF crossdreamer from the United States.  More specifically I live in west Texas.  I really don't want to give out my given name if possible.

2.  

I think it was in my mid-20's that I first came across the term.  If I am remembering correctly I was searching for something else online and came across the wikipedia article on the subject. 

3.  

At the time I read about it I thought it more or less described my fantasies, and it finally game me a term to use to describe my fantasies.  I was happy about that.  However, I didn't really pay any attention to the section on transwomen or the controversy around the term at the time.  I was convinced at the time that my fantasies were just a "fetish"  so I wasn't interested too much in the part about how it supposedly applied to transwomen.

4.  

My opinion currently is that it is a psuedoscientific theory that is used to stigmatize and attack transwomen.  About a couple of years ago, I was having an extremely strong episode of these fantasies.   Nothing I did could get them to go away, and at times I thought I was about to go crazy.  It was then I think I realized that what I am going through was no mere fetish.  I began to search for anything I could to better understand (and possibly control) these feelings.  

Eventually I was posting about what  I was going through on AVEN when one of the members there game me a link to the Crossdreamers.com site.  It was only then that I was reintroduced to the term AGP, and read about it in detail.  From there I went to other sites including TSRoadmap, and to Julia Serrano's articles on the subject.  Being a bit of a scientific skeptic I also read up about the theory on a few skeptic websites like rational wiki.

Having read about the theories flaws I finally decided that the theory was psuedoscientific rubbish along the lines of the aquatic ape hypothesis.  Further, having seen how it is used against transwomen (to whom I feel a strong empathy) I decided to never use the term AGP to describe myself again.  I especially liked what I read at the crossdreamers site, and from then on only used the term "crossdreamer" to describe myself.

5.  

Honestly, I do consider myself transgender but I really really don't like to identify that way.  My fantasies are always with me but they come in waves and when those feelings are at a high, I embrace that term almost whole heartedly.  However, when those feelings are low it feels completely wrong.  And overall, while, again, I do consider myself as being transgender, I just have a really hard time feeling okay publically identifying that way.  Especially since I have no intention at this time of ever transitioing.  Sorry for the sidetrack, but I feel that is important to mention before getting to your question.

Anyway, no it has not been used to invalidate me.  However, that is because I am very closeted in real life about both my sexaulity and my crossdreaming.  It is hard to be invalidated if you aren't open about these things.  That said, I have seen the theory to invalidate others online a myriad of times.

6.  

I have only discussed my crossdreaming 3 placs.  Here, on AVEN, and with an online friend who came out to me about their own decision to transition.  On AVEN, I discussed this on their gender forum for transpeople.  They were very supportive and many of them told me they experienced the same exact feelings and they gave me links to several websites.  Here on CDL I have experienced nothing but total acceptance and support.  Finally, my online friend was just as accepting of me as I had been of her.

7. 

I personally like to define crossdreamer as "Someone who enjoys dreaming/fantasizes/ or thinking about themselves as the opposite sex and/or gender."  

8. 

I do consider myself a crossdreamer.  I think the label is appropriate because have been fantasizing about being the opposite sex since I was 12.  It has been my deepest secret joy and source of happiness every single day of my life since then.  Something that until recently I couldn't tell anyone about.

9.  

I have always had a love for myths and fantasy stories for as long as I can remember.  In particular, as a young kid transformation stories fascinated me.  So in a small way I do think crossdreaming has been with me for just about my whole life.  However, its wasn't until about the start of 7th grade that I had my first crossdreaming experience.  It was at that time that I saw the movie Dr. Jeckyll and Ms. Hyde.  

The moment the first transformation took place felt like a switch was flicked on inside of me and the crossdreams began. 

I remember that I had always been a very socially awkward kid with fewer friend than I could count fingers on one hand.  I spent most of my time by myself just creating stories and fantasies in my own head.  Once the crossdreams began, all those stories suddenly gained a strong gender bending theme.  I still fantasized about being various heroes and what not, but all of the sudden all those heroes would get a magical forced sex change and be stuck that way. 

 I furiously searched out anything and everything I could about people being transformed into the opposite sex.  Loving mythology and knowing their perchant for transformation stories I began scouring all sources I could for stories of people who had their sex changed.  

I also discovered the manga "Ranma 1/2" about this time which turned me from a casual anime watcher into a fanatic!  Manga and Anime seemed alot more open to gender bending themes and provided a needed outlet for these feelings I couldn't find in American media.

10.  

Guilt?  I don't know I would call it that.  I never felt like there was anything wrong with what I was doing.  I originally thought of it as a fetish, and while I know that there is a lot of social baggage with fetishes I have always thought of fetishes as being perfectly natural.  That said, I was HORRIBLY embarrassed by it.  While not an feminine person, I was not very masculine either.  I hated sports and hyper masculinity.  To top it off, I had/have a somewhat high pitched and androgynous voice, the drop dead last thing I wanted anyone to know was that I liked to fantasize about myself being turned into a girl.  Maybe "shame" would be a better word.

Further, my family and I are pretty private.  We tend to believe personal things like this should be kept private.  Unless it is vital for someone else to know something like this, we like to keep our lives to ourselves.

11.  

Lots of things about AGP I consider false. 

First and foremost, for me anyways, is the idea that we are sexually attracted to ourselves.  I consider myself asexual, I don't experience sexual desire/attraction at all.  If I was sexually attracted to myself my fantasies wouldn't be of me becoming a woman, so much as it would be me wanting to have intercourse with a female clone of myself.  I don't want that at all.  I don't want to have sex with anyone.  

Second, I would say the idea that AGP causes people to become transgender.  I feel that is putting the cart before the horse.  I believe that Crossdreaming is a consquence to an at least partial transgender identity.

Third, according to AGP theory all transwomen fall into one of two groups.  Homosexual transexuals (men who are attracted to other men and pretty much want to become women because they want to better attracted other men) and AGP transexuals (men who fetishize themselves as women).  The first group are supposedly all androphilic, want to be girls from their earlies possible memories, and are naturally feminine.  The second group only develop said feelings from adolescence, have some sort of attraction to women, and are masculine.  I have met other crossdreamers here who have fantasized or wanted to the other sex from way before adolescence.  I have met gay crossdreamers here.  And having several non-feminine cis-female relatives (including my own self described "tom-boy" mother) I think the idea of natural feminity is bunk.

I have also heard that all of us crossdreamers are violent, homophobic, and mysogynistic pervert narcissists.  I have never been in a violent altercation with anyone.  I am the main caretaker of my mother who has MS and love her deeply.  I consider myself a intersectional feminist.  I am a HUGE supporter of the LGBTQ movement.  I have never molested or assaulted anyone or done anything "perverted."  Oh and on the Narcissistic Personality Inventory I score a 2.  I find insinuations like these highly offensive.

These are just the things that come to mind.

12.  

One thing I really want to emphasize is how confusing these fantasies can be.  I was attracted to the opposite sex, but not in the way everyone else was.

I spent years denying these feelings over and over again telling myself it was just a fetish.  That I didn't really want to be a girl.  As an adolescent I would wish upon a star to be a girl and then immediately give myself a mental slap telling myself to quit getting so caught up in a fetish.  I was a mixed up mess for a long time.

Last Edited By: Lost247365 Jun 5 17 5:52 AM. Edited 4 times.

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#8 [url]

Jun 6 17 1:32 PM

I'm happy to write something, as Vaydra has done... I just wanted assurances I would be kept in the picture about your progress after I had done so

Not so sure about appearing on camera, even in an anonymous way, nor sure how you'd do that from Greece to UK!

(Oh I sound like a grump, I am genuinely pleased with your interest)

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#9 [url]

Jun 7 17 9:18 AM

PipX wrote:
I'm happy to write something, as Vaydra has done... I just wanted assurances I would be kept in the picture about your progress after I had done so

Not so sure about appearing on camera, even in an anonymous way, nor sure how you'd do that from Greece to UK!

(Oh I sound like a grump, I am genuinely pleased with your interest)

It's alright, I totally understand it. I have never written here before and I am a complete stranger with all that comes with that.

Unfortunately I'd have no way to do this through camera -I have no recording program and I am pretty bad at taking notes. So written form it is.

Oh, and worry not, I love grumpy people~~~ <3

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#10 [url]

Jun 10 17 1:14 PM

p.s. English is not my native language, so please don't hesitate to ask for any clarifications that may be needed.

01. Introduce yourself to us.
I’m a CIS-Male in my early 50s, a graduate, with a career in IT and now dabbling in teaching. I'm a regular in this group would have been for about 18 months after previously being a sleeping member of Jack's previous (pre lefora)… Somewhere along the line I got myself appointed as a mod in this group and suggested I modded the chat room. I started what I now recognise as crossdreaming when I was about four years old. I've never had anything remotely close to a relationship although to all my friends I am a heterosexual man.
02. When did you first hear about autogynaephilia?
When I first connected up to the world of the Internet, I immediately gravitate to places where I could discuss transsexualism, and made a few friends I chatted with online quite a bit. One of these who lived locally to me I did eventually meet and we went to a film together, though we didn't quite hit it off in person as well as online. Anyway, I mention this because it was she who introduced me to the term autogynaephilia. She directed me towards websites by Anne Lawrence, who is some kind of publicist for Blanchard, rather than writing by Blanchard himself.
03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?
My first impressions were favourable. At least it told me that my feelings and experiences were not unique. I understood it to mean ‘being sexually turned on by the thought of oneself as a woman’. That described how I felt then, and it does now. I was in my 30s at the time and probably my sexual side was stronger than it is now.
04. What is your current opinion on autogynaephilia?
My issue with autogynaephilia is not that it is bunkum, that doesn't exist. As I said in my previous answer, I experience it. Where the theory falls down is in its application, in three important ways.
a. Though it’s part of my feelings regarding ‘me as a woman’, it’s far from the whole story. Sometimes I enjoy viewing myself as a woman at times when my objective is NOT to be ‘turned on.
b. Blanchard extends his theory that there are two and only two kinds of TS, though who exclusively rely on autogynaephilia for their ‘TS’ feelings, and those who never do. This is clearly rubbish.
c. Who is to say women who were born as girls don’t experience sexual pleasure from their own bodies? I think it highly likely they do, though the evidence of CIS women is required for that.
So autogynaephilia exists but its relationship with Tsism (and crossdreaming is complex)… It’s not found in all TS people and it’s found in many who are not. And for the TS people who do experience it, it’s far from the whole story

05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynaephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?

Well, yes, by me! Actually I don’t consider myself Trans, in so far as I don’t NEED to transition and I’m 99.9% sure I won’t. And at stages of my development, yes, I have used my self-knowledge that I experience autogynaephilia as a reason why I wouldn’t transition. I don’t think that’s the reason now.
06. Have you ever discussed autogynaephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions?

Only people on this site and similar. I know there is a fairly general dislike on this site about the theory as proposed by Blanchard, and of that man himself, but I’ll leave you to pick that up from their contributions
07. What do you define as crossdreaming?

A much more widely based term describing my inclinations to imagine myself as a woman – Applied to a CIS woman, that would be to imagine themselves as a man.
08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself?

Yes, the term describes me very accurately. I find myself sepnding quite a lot of time considering or drawing pleasure from the idea of myself as a woman. Sometimes I do this consciously, sometimes it starts unconsciously. I just realise I am crossdreaming. Sometimes a picture sparks it, sometimes a woman walking past me. Often no trigger is required
09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?
Well, if we back date a term, since I only learnt it 2 years ago.. when I was 4 I used to tck my little man thing between my legs to see if I could make myself look like my sisters (We were not part of a nudist colony but neither did my parents try and hide bodies away. I took baths with my sisters up to the age of about 5 or 6).. When I was about 8 I first heard of the term ‘transsexualism’… well maybe not the term but the concept. I was listening to the radio with my dad (we were the 2 ealy risers in the family then) and he mentioned by way of conversation that the lady talking on the radio had been a man (It was Jan Morris). I didn’t think ‘Oh can I be a girl too) but I did think ‘Oh how very interesting’. The memory stuck – well of course it did or I wouldn’t be writing about it now
10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?

Not guilt. Maybe some confusion. Before I discovered the internet when i was about 31 I assumed only very few people actually did change gender and they were generally considered freaks by everyone who knew them. I had no desire for people to consider me a freak. Now, well, if I did feel guilty then I absolve myself of all. I am a crossdreamer and its nothing to be ashamed of.
11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?

Ah, I’ll have to think about that and come back to you. I can’t think of any off hand, and if something is false about my experience, it could still be true for someone else.
12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?

Oh crumbs, these are going to come to me once I’ve posted this. I’ve been crossdreaming for so long now I could almost write my life history.. You really don’t want that. I suggest to look around the site; Anything I’ve written in any post on this site you are free to quote. You at also ask me anything if I've not been clear or you would like to know more

Right, now I'm going to read the answers by my good friend Vaydra above, which I have refrained from reading before adding my own thoughts

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#11 [url]

Jun 10 17 7:36 PM

 01. Introduce yourself to us.
02. When did you first hear about autogynaephilia?
03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?
04. What is your current opinion on autogynaephilia?
05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynaephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?
06. Have you ever discussed autogynaephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions?
07. What do you define as crossdreaming?
08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself?
09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?
10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?
11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?
12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?

  1. I go by Xora here, which is the name I picked when I first started visiting SecondLife as a girl, which would have been about 2004, when I was 22 I think, quite a while back at any rate. It's a play on the Boolean XOR operator, being true if either A or B but not true if A and B, or something. I guess I thought it was quite clever at the time. I'm 34 now, 35 in a few months, still presenting as male in real life, and I started on low dose HRT earlier this year, but I'm not sure where exactly I'm going to end up yet.
  2. I'm not entirely sure, it may not have been till 2010 or something, when I started looking for some answers, before then I didn't really have a word for it, just that I could only get turned on by doing or thinking of something related to turning into a woman, and it had been that way since early puberty, and I didn't really understand why it was, but I just tried to ignore it and basically not get involved with anyone. 
  3. Well at first it was some kind of an explanation, as I was still thinking in terms of the sort of Freudian developmental idea of certain people developing flawed sexual object relations for one reason or another, through childhood trauma, or an absent father figure, or just being incredibly narcissistic, so the idea that people projected what would have become normal heterosexual feelings back onto themselves and in effect fell in love with their own self image sort of made some sort of sense, but I didn't think my childhood had been that traumatic, so I wondered why that sort of thing would have happened to me, and whether there was anything I could do about it as an adult, if I ever wanted to have a genuine relationship.
  4. Well obviously I still believe it's a phenomena, that applies to a surprising number of people to one degree or another, but I don't see it as a psychological/personality flaw any more. It's not something that happened to me during my life that caused something to go 'wrong' with how I related to other people, it's more just the way I was born, which was essentially very very feminine in all kinds of ways, with my subconscious sexuality just being a small part of that. 
  5. Well kind of, I didn't think I actually was a girl for a long time, just that a part of me really really wanted to be one, but that was a part I was determined not to give in to, at least publically. Obviously I knew that when freed of external restrictions and expectations I could be really really feminine in my head, and as I got older the barriers I had built between my waking personality and my sexual identity started to crumble and bleed together, and it was making things really difficult at work and so forth. 
  6. I think the clinicians still use the patients self-admission of AGP type feelings as a way of discounting a diagnosis of gender identity disorder, but that's more to do with how things fit into their restrictive diagnostic checklists, and that the process seems to be set up to exclude as many people as possible from potential treatment, rather than to help as many people as possible. So it's still a case of us trying to game the existing system to get what we want, which is kind of sad.
  7. I didn't until about 2013, when I started posting on the previous crossdreamers forum, before that I was a bit of a lurker in various places online, like the AGP subreddit, and some more femdom type sites, by that stage I was frantically looking to find a better way of framing my beliefs and figuring myself out. 
  8. Well to me it's a nicer, less clinical, description for the AGP, or AAP phenomena, and associated populations and subcultures, without all that psychoanalytic baggage implied. Basically the subset of people whose insides don't match their outsides, whose subconscious sexuality and fantasy life doesn't tally with their external characteristics. I'd go further and say it's the set of people who are neurologically transgender and would probably transition if it wasn't so difficult and implied so much stigma, but are intelligent enough to cope with day to day life and dissociate from their sexuality and sublimate their emotional goals into other activities and careers. I see it as a compromise position, and one that is probably less than optimally healthy, but our individual situations my prevent us from taking things any further.
  9. Do you mean when did I first 'want' to be the opposite sex? Well I'm not sure exactly, I think I'm kind of androgynous in non-sexual behaviours, so I kind of wanted to be a mad scientist or inventor and I didn't need to be one sex or the other to do that, so it didn't bother me much as a pre-teen. So I probably played with dolls, and liked helping out in the kitchen, and wanted to do ballet, and enjoyed music and dance, and occasionally put on my sisters dressing up clothes and things, but didn't think that much of it till I hit puberty quite late at 14. Then it seemed like suddenly I knew I was just supposed to be one of the pretty/sexy ones, like I bat my eyes and people come running, and I found that dressing up as a girl was really 'exciting' shall we say. It was really really strong when I was 16-17, and I struggled quite a lot to not indulge too much when I was supposed to be doing schoolwork and so forth. But then I got really scared of the potential consequences of being a 'freak' so after about 18 I very rarely did anything physical even in secret, and just read gender transformation stories or visited virtual worlds where I could be anyone I wanted and do anything I wanted to do. In terms of actual dreams, well it rarely actually works that way for me, I don't remember a lot of dreams anyway, and those I do are your run of the mill discovering you are naked, or crashing your car type situations. I did start to have dreams about finally seeing a doctor about getting on HRT in about 2012, and that's the point at which I started to dive into it more deeply. 
  10. Yes, I mean, why me? Why should I be one of those people that so many other people seem to hate? I though that I could just not act like a girl in real life and no one would know, because if I never got physically involved with anyone then it would never need to be a conversation I would be forced to have. But eventually I realised that even if I didn't wear my sexuality on my sleeve, well the general shape of my personality itself was actually pretty obvious to most people that spent any time with me, all but me it seems, and I was just making things far more difficult for myself than they actually needed to be by living in total denial for so long. 
  11. I consider the whole idea of 'erotic target location error' false. We aren't really in love with ourselves like that, if anything it's just a kind of immaturity, we're sort of emotionally stuck in the narcissistic 'clueless' teenage girl stage for a much longer time, so our sexuality is all about us and our needs and not someone else, but as we get older and get into our late twenties and early thirties I think that gradually changes, and then we're more like 18-19 year olds, looking for a first partner. Basically emotionally retarded/developmentally delayed due to a mixup of the wrong hormones at puberty. If we'd been allowed to hormonally transition as teenagers then we'd probably just be like regular females, and not some hodge-podge of semi-masculine occupations and beliefs and a split off feminine fantasy life. 
  12. This whole area is really confusing, even for the people directly involved, so imagine what it must be like for 'cisgender' people who never have cause to ask themselves these kinds of questions. It takes a lot of deprogramming of common cultural assumptions and looking at things from different perspectives to get a handle on what is likely going on and how it really works at a biological level. Maybe instead of thinking of a strange 40 year old man who keeps telling everyone, against all evidence, that he is actually a woman, like 'The man who would be queen', when you just think he's just a sexual pervert and 'fetishist', think instead of what it would be like if you actually were born a rather vulnerable girl, but with a penis, and were forced to grow up pretending to everyone else and even to yourself that you were really a boy, and what that might do to you in terms of developing a somewhat fractured psyche as an adult. I found reading things like 'Flowers for Algernon' was really cathartic, as it has a character with a sudden massive rise in 'left-brain' type intelligence and literacy, using it to self-analyse his deeper trapped emotions and this memories of his more traumatic childhood experiences, and come to terms with his troubled family life, so that he was finally able to have a committed relationship with a woman, without having to imagine he was with someone else, or always seeing himself in the third person. Nowadays you'd probably say Charlie Gordon has some kind of autism, so it's kind of a view into what it's actually like to grow up as a person who does quite get 'it' and doesn't know why, even if, well people like me aren't nearly as intellectual disabled as that, but we can still be just as lost in terms of having any kind of social life, and are just as likely to be bullied, and to either not understand how or why or to totally blame ourselves for it.

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#13 [url]

Jun 12 17 1:19 AM

I have sent my response to Ariadne by email, but these responses may be interesting to others as well, so...

01. Introduce yourself to us.

 I am a male assigned male to female transgender person living in Scandinavia. I have blogged on crossdreamer and transgender issues for the last nine years or so, and is the cofounder of the Crossdream Life forum for gender variant people. 
02. When did you first hear about autogynaephilia?

 As for so many of us, the term came up in a search for information on  crossgender erotic fantasies and what I later came to call crossdreaming.  
03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?

 On the one hand I felt relief, in the sense that the existence of the concept told me that I was not alone having such feelings. But I am quite knowledgeable in the history of science, and realized pretty quickly that the theory's explanation for crossdreaming fit a long tradition of presenting sexulaity and gender variance as mental illnesses and perversions. Ray Blanchard has been following the script that was previously used to pathologize gay and lesbian people. 
04. What is your current opinion on autogynaephilia?

 After having read most of the literature, discussed this with transgender activists and a lot of crossdreamer friends, the conclusion is clear: The autogynephilia theory is bad science, indeed. Actually, Blanchard's own data falsifies the idea that crossdreaming is limited to male assigned people who are attracted to women. I know of a lot of male to female crossdreamers who love men, as well as female assigned crossdreamers. Most serious researchers these days consider crossdreaming a natural expression of some kind of gender variance, and not a "paraphilia" (sexual perversion). 
05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynaephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?

 Many, many times, and not only by the few researchers who support the autogynephilia theory. The concept have been used by so-called TERFs to harass me online (trans-exclusionary radical feminists).  But the theory has also been used by transgender women who feel a need to distance themselves from crossdreamers. Most of them have probably had the same dreams I had, but this is what bigoted science does to a marginalized group. It turns us against each other. 
06. Have you ever discussed autogynaephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions?

 When I talk about crossdreaming with other crossdreamers, most of them feel relief. Knowing that you are not alone and that this is not something to be ashamed of makes a huge difference. Many of them feel a lot of shame and guilt because of the misogyny in contemporary culture. A male-assigned person who dreams about being a woman breaks one of the strongest taboos in our cultures, especially if you also fantasize about having sex as a woman. Being a man is good, being a woman is bad, and women who dream about sex are "bad". The autogynephilia theory presents such sexist stereotypes in a pseudo-scientific language, so I spend a lot of time helping transgender people seeing the theory for what it is. In my private life, I have talked about my crossdreaming with my wife. Her acceptance has meant a lot to me. 
07. What do you define as crossdreaming?

 The term crossdreaming was coined to describe the phenomenon that some people get aroused by the idea of being the "other sex" (relative to their assigned gender at birth). However, most of my fellow crossdreamers interpret the term more broadly, including all kinds of expressions of the dream of being the target gender. 
08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself?

 I coined the term in order to have a non-toxic alternative to terms like autogynephilia. The term itself says nothing about what causes such dreams and fantasies, and can be used by all to describe this phenomenon. But yes, I do have such dreams and fantasies, and I consider them my psyche's way of handling the fact that I am transgender. 
09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?

 I believe I was around nine years old. Other male-assigned kids my age dreamed about being male heroes. I remember I dreamed about being Supergirl, probably because such a fantasy made it possible to be both a girl and powerful at the same time. I still have a magic ring I made from tin foil wrappers. I imaged it would turn me into a girl. It did not work, unfortunately. 
10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?

 Not any more, but it has taken me several years to get to that point.  
11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?

 The autogynephilia theory that says that crossdreaming is limited to male assigned persons who are sexually attracted to women in clearly false. The idea that crossdreamers are suffering from a so-called "erotic traget location error" is nonsense, since crossdreamers are as likely to love others as anyone else given the chance. Nor is this a  fetish for clothes. A lot of crossdreamers, myself included, do not crossdress. The idea that this is some kind of humiliation fetish is also false, given that a majority of crossdreamers do not get turned on by such fantasies. 
12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?


Autogynephilia supporters often argue that transgender women who attack the autogynephilia theory are in denial. There clearly is such a thing as autogynephilia, they say, so these trans women are lying. This is a rhetorical trick used by Ray Blanchard and his supporters as well. So let me make this clear: All the major transgender activists recognize that there is such a thing as crossdreaming. The trans philosopher Julia Serano has, for instance called such dreams feminine/female (or masculine/male) embodiment fantasies. What we argue against is not the existence of the fantasies, but the misleading explanation for them found in the autogynephilia theory.image

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#14 [url]

Jun 12 17 11:45 AM

Hi Ariadne,
I'd like to see your presentation. :) Maybe you can do a web-stream from us? Here are my answers - if you have questions just let me know.

*hugs* Bobbi bobbidareme at gmail dot com

01. Introduce yourself to us.
I am 52 years old M2F transgender person presenting for the most part as male.

02. When did you first hear about autogynaephilia?
I it was about 15 years ago I think, I recently found an old article on my PC about one of the Clarke/ CAMH group here in Toronto and that was about 2003.

03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?
I was initially fascinated because here was a group of academics (including one transsexual – Anne Lawrence) that was discussing sexual expression. Before this the Harry Benjamin standard was far too sterile with regard to sexuality and AGP seemed somewhat refreshing.

04. What is your current opinion on autogynaephilia?
There is a lot to unpack with regard to my current opinion toward this “theory.” Generally speaking my objection toward even calling AGP a valid theory is that it has been too broadly applied and has been used as an excuse to invalidate the rights and even existence of Transgender people (particularly M2F who are “late transitioners”) – the so called Bathroom Bill in the NC is an example. I have examples where academics who directly inform lawmakers on public policy have quoted Blanchard and his group.

05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynaephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?
Not directly. However the thinking that some are more trans than others permeated the trans community and AGP was one more reason to classify some as less-trans/ fetishists. I have decided not to transition and because of that I have been made to feel like a lesser-trans by some in our community.

06. Have you ever discussed autogynaephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions?
I know a wide variety of people in the trans-community and so I know those who support AGP and those who do not. The vast majority of those I know do not support AGP as a valid theory. The ones who support it are doing so in order to separate themselves from who they see as “lesser.” They think this insulates them from societal bias in some way.
It is a sad state of affairs when a marginalized community like our turns on itself, which is generally how many of us feel about AGP – it is just hurtful and needs to be called out as junk science.

07. What do you define as crossdreaming?
I think of crossdreaming as a general term for any fantasy (sexual or non-sexual) where you derive pleasure from imagining yourself in a gender role opposite from the one you must live with (i.e Assigned at Birth).

08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself?
I do consider myself a crossdreamer, because I frequently have the fantasies I described above.

09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?
I first began experiencing crossdreaming fantasies at the age of nine when I would imagine coming back from a mall or a doctor (my memory is not very clear on that detail) and having a brand new vagina, breasts, etc, as well as a few shopping bags full of girl clothes. I would then close the door, throw myself on my bed and masturbate.

10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?
I had a sense that what I was doing was wrong somehow, because I could not bring myself to discuss it with my parents. My mother even caught me crossdressing a couple of times (I think my sister did as well) and her reaction to it was to make up a story about why I was doing it (rather than try to drag the answer out of me). I didn’t argue with her because I was ashamed.

11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?
There seems to be an impression that crossdreaming is somehow the same as AGP. They are most definitely not equivalent. Firstly, crossdreaming is not a theory, it is merely a general description of fantasies that trans-people experience that are unique to us. Secondly, it includes all trans-people, not just early and late transitioning M2F transsexuals.

12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?
There are some, TERFs, “fetishists,” Religious types, etc, who try to tell us that our crossdreaming forum is just a way to retreat into an echo-chamber and not to deal with reality. That we are not women, in any sense of the word, and to believe otherwise is simply delusional. Today we live in a society that is in a state of flux with regard to gender expression. In Canada our Senate has just passed Bill C-16 which seeks to place violations of gender expression under the list of Hate Crimes proscribed under our laws. Young people are seeing alternate forms of gender expression in media and on the Internet and finding it compelling, or at least non-threatening. I think we are generally moving in the right direction with regard to acceptance and away from damaging pseudo-science that supported LGBTQQI -bashing in the past. I look forward to a day when people will ask me “I just read an old book talking about AGP, it seems silly, what was that all about?”

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#15 [url]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to a. thak you for answering the questions. Your replies were very thought provoking and I will spend a good chunk of the presentation presenting and discussing them. Next update will be after July 8 to inform you all how things went. Much much love to all!

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#16 [url]

help

01. Introduce yourself to us.I’m someone who has experience a number of shifts in my sexual interests. 

Between 14 to 24, my fantasies involved crossdressing, forced feminization, BD/SM, as well as vanilla. At around 24 my interests in cross-dressing faded away.  When I was in my 40’s, I frequented Drag clubs and dated many “gay transsexuals.”  With them, I mostly was a top, but experiments with bottoming.  Because of this, I thought I was bisexual even though the only sex partners I had with penises, looked like women.   

02. When did you first hear about autogynephilia?

I read an article in the New York Times about Michael Bailey and controversies with certain transsexual women. I did a google search and found a PDF of his book: The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science of Gender-Bending and Transsexualism by J. Michael Bailey 

03. Do you recall what were your initial feelings and thoughts on the theory?

It had a profound effect on my thinking about gay and transgender issues.  The book was both informative and enjoyable to read.  He is a good writer.  Before that, I believed that homosexuality was at least in part environmental.  After reading the book, I am now convinced that is mostly the result of hormone imbalances in utero.  Also, most gays reported having interests closer to girls when they were children showing that homosexuality is primarily the result of the differences in brain development in utero.  The theory of transvestism was that it was a fetishistic interest in women’s clothes.  This didn’t apply to me; I was interested in fantasizing about being a woman, not just wearing their clothes.  The concept of autogynephilia was more descriptive of me.  Also, playing the bottom in sex was a way to experience what a woman experiences in sex.  Autogynephilia explained this also.     

04. What is your current opinion on autogynephilia?

It explains more closely than anything else, what I experienced in my transgender fantasies. 

05. (For trans individuals) Has autogynephilia ever been used to invalidate your transgenderism?

For me, it explained my transvestism.  Of the transsexuals that I dated all of them were attracted to men.  None of them said that their efforts to look like women were motivated by sexual excitement.  They wanted to look sexy to attract men.  As far as transsexuals who were attracted to women; I didn’t know any.  So, I can’t speak for them.    

06. Have you ever discussed autogynephilia with others? If so, what were their reactions? NO.

07. What do you define as cross dreaming?

I haven’t used the term before.  Crossdressing seems to be more in common usage on the internet. 

08. Do you consider yourself a crossdreamer? If so, what is it that you believe makes the label appropriate to describe yourself? Yes
I was that until my mid-twenties.  I still find the subject fascinating.  I like to look at MtoF transformations especially when the guy looks better as a woman than as a man.     

09. What were the earliest memories of crossdreaming you have had?

 When I was 12, I attended a coed summer camp.  On the last night of the camp, my camp counselor had the boys steal the girl’s dresses.  We then went to the last dinner dressed as girls and hung out with the girls that we took the dresses from.  I found the experience intensely exciting.  Many of my sexual fantasies in future years involved being captured by girls in the forest and forced to look like and act like the girls and being eventually sexually used by them.   

10. Did you ever experience any guilt for having crossdreaming fantasies?

Not guilt.  Activities of consenting adults in private are nothing to be guilty about.  I did feel the fear that I would be found out and subjected to ridicule.  I would have preferred to be dating attractive girls and not francizing about being one.  I was terrified of rejection and felt that no girl that I was attracted to would be attracted to me. 

11. Are there any concepts about crossdreaming that you consider false?

 Blanchard’s explanation for autogynephilia is erotic target location errors (ETLEs).  This theory is that autogynephilia in looking for women outside of themselves make an error and find it inside.  In my case, it wasn’t an error.  I found it inside because I could not find it outside. 

Janis Ian’s At Seventeen
“And those of us with ravaged faces
Lacking in the social graces
Desperately remained at home
Inventing lovers on the phone” 

That was me.   But, I invented them inside of me. 

12. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to add?

Read Bailey’s book.  It’s a free download.  Read it with an open mind and decide for yourself if it has value for you.  Don’t just echo the opinions of others. 

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