#1 [url]

oreb wrote:
[url=

Has any of you read the manga series? Any thoughts?[/url]
 

I kept up with boku girl until shortly after Takerou's sister appeared.  At that point I think I got more into "Osananajimi wa Onnanoko ni naare."  I might pick it back up again.  I really didn't notice the performance aspect thought.  Maybe that part showed up later; but, I thought it was mainly trying to be a raunchier version of "Ranma 1/2" without quite going fully ecchi like "Futaba-Kun Change."  

https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=103345

I think my main contention with the video is that what they call Gender, I consider Gender expression.  Gender, in my opinion, is a much more complicated concept in that it seems involve several different concepts from bodily anatomy, to neurology in gender identity, to cultural ideas of what is masculine/feminine to one's one personal opinion on what constitutes a man or woman.

I feel that we have a certain neurological state, gender identity, that tells us that we are male or female and compells us to find ways express this gender to others.  This is pure biology.  The thing is, that we don't come preprogrammed with male or female behavior.  Because of this, long ago, our ancestors arbritarily decided on what was masculine or feminine.  Thus, feeling compelled to express our gender we look at what our culture has declare male and female and use that to express that part of our pysche: ultimately resulting in Gender expression.

The behavioral part of this, I think, is probably what they mean by "performance."  Our culture dictates that X or Y behavior is male/female and we perform that behavior in order to communicate our internal gender identity to others.

The problem with declaring all gender as performance, again imho, is that view completely ignores all evidence of the biological etiology of gender identity.

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#2 [url]

I think that's a good way of putting it. 
So let's think, stripping away all fripperies and looking at it totally abstractly, what are we actually biologically compelled to do?

What's a must-have, a nice-to-have, and what's a 'I don't really emotionally want this or want to be doing this, but I only do this not to lose 'face''?
Then you decide what is a 'performance' and what is essential biology. 

Personally I seem pretty biologically compelled to stay physically safe, stay well fed, stay warm, not appear as a threat to others, collect massive amounts of somewhat useless information which I want to share with others with similar interests, not appear to be wrong or to be screwing things up too badly, collect lots of random useless objects and sort of build a lovenest I guess, and feel like I am actually working towards some kind of eventual goal, whatever that may be, so that today always goes better and more efficiently than yesterday, which seems to be taking far longer than what part my psyche really has much patience for, oh and occasionally I'd really like someone to have sex with me, which never happens at all.

The rest I don't honestly care much about, and only really do not to upset those around me too much, but I imagine that were I part of a peer group of same-age women, now going through their early thirties, I'd already be well invested in having a husband and kids by now and I'd be teaching them how not to behave. 

Some of those goals conflict with the other ones, so you can see why someone like me might still end up getting someone pregnant even if they didn't much feel like having sex. 
So see how that fits together with 'Asperger's Syndrome' or 'Plastic Brains' if you like. 

Then you see that a lot of the things that someone like Judith Butler rails against as being purely a cultural convention which she is being forced to uphold, are things that I'd really like to be doing that I feel I am not allowed to do because to do them would imply a dramatic fall in implied 'status', and probably vice-versa. 

I mean, if I'm really honest, I think I'd be perfectly happy, perhaps even ecstatic, to be like another Trisha Paytas, and anything more than that seems like extra unnecessary hard work just to try to keep up with everyone else. 
image
I'm not saying I can't do it, some of it I occasionally do really well, it just seems like it's lots of extra effort that doesn't get me any closer to my goal. 

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 1 time.

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#3 [url]

Lost247365 wrote:

I kept up with boku girl until shortly after Takerou's sister appeared.  At that point I think I got more into "Osananajimi wa Onnanoko ni naare."  I might pick it back up again.  I really didn't notice the performance aspect thought.  Maybe that part showed up later; but, I thought it was mainly trying to be a raunchier version of "Ranma 1/2" without quite going fully ecchi like "Futaba-Kun Change."  


https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=103345

I think my main contention with the video is that what they call Gender, I consider Gender expression.  Gender, in my opinion, is a much more complicated concept in that it seems involve several different concepts from bodily anatomy, to neurology in gender identity, to cultural ideas of what is masculine/feminine to one's one personal opinion on what constitutes a man or woman.

I feel that we have a certain neurological state, gender identity, that tells us that we are male or female and compells us to find ways express this gender to others.  This is pure biology.  The thing is, that we don't come preprogrammed with male or female behavior.  Because of this, long ago, our ancestors arbritarily decided on what was masculine or feminine.  Thus, feeling compelled to express our gender we look at what our culture has declare male and female and use that to express that part of our pysche: ultimately resulting in Gender expression.

The behavioral part of this, I think, is probably what they mean by "performance."  Our culture dictates that X or Y behavior is male/female and we perform that behavior in order to communicate our internal gender identity to others.

The problem with declaring all gender as performance, again imho, is that view completely ignores all evidence of the biological etiology of gender identity.

 

You sound like an expert in gender swap anime. Which one would you recommend the most?  Ranma was quite popular growing up, but I somehow managed to avoid it. I'm really good at avoiding things.  

I don't think the video is referring only to gender expression, but I'm not sure the meaning of the term is to me.  The problem for me is more that it glosses too much over over details while losing too much time with references and boilerplate abstract statements that don't always add that much.
Physicality + social expectations constrain behaviour; repeated behaviour generates identification.  That seems to be the idea, more or less.  

I agree that we don't come preprogrammed with male or female behaviour.
There are certain instinctual behaviours (mostly having to do with mating) where there is a consistent difference between male and female; this also seems to be true, although to a much lesser extent* for certain temperamental variables. Sure, it is absurd to think that all the miriad of minute gendered behaviours that a culture has is preprogrammed in some way. Particularly since those can change a lot from culture to culture.

However, I don't think those behaviours can be written off as only "arbitrary conventions" for some fundamental gender identity to latch on.
They form a system with a certain degree of internal consistency (in a loose sense of the word, not the logical one) and consistency with people's bodies, which are obviously gendered. Let me try to give some example.

I remember reading how in the Stanford Prison experiment prisoners, who were forced to wear some sort fo gown, started behaving in ways which were more stereotipically feminine. No, I don't think that was because they were feeling "emasculated" [;-)]. There is probably a certain extra degree of perceived physical vulnerability that comes with wearing that type of clothing (probably the reason why it was chosen) which compels any person who wears it to move in a certain way.
Also how when I was an adolescent and obsessed about my gynecomastia I acquired a couple of pacifying gestures around my chest which one could see as feminine. This was a time where I was protecting my "100% normal boy"-identity with KGBesque efficiency, so I really don't think any sort expression of a female identity was involved; I think in that case it was more that the thought of your chest as vulnerable and potentially a subject of negative attention tends to trigger the same set of responses regardless of who you are.

One could say culture then comes and abstracts all of this into some genereal feminine and masculine categories and a bunch of other stuff. The meanings it imposes on all of this mess of behaviours can be totally removed from this more basic bodily and social mechanisms that partially power them. Actually, there are all sorts of complicated feedback loops. Examples as those above are just the base level; those behaviours will in turn trigger certain reactions and so on and so on. And culture informs those reactions from the very first iteration in ways that are mostly not under conscious control.
My point is that it is not as simple as somebody actively chosing certain behaviours among those culturually codified in a certain way. You are swimming in the midst of very strong currents.

Having a more bulky body might imposes certain mechanical constraints on the ways this body can move; the possibility of being perceived as threatening by other people (at a basic instinctual level) might further constrain this body's movement. Eventually this constrained movement might end up being expected from all of the members of the class of people who tend to have bulkier bodies, regardless of whether they are actually bulky or not, as well as entangled with all sorts of connotations like "practicality", "lack of emotion", "lack of empathy", "stoicism" or even "competence", "authority" (:-s). (directly or just through a middle notion of masculinity? is not clear)

Some of this connotations might still bear a certain connection with certain "basic mechanics" of human interaction, some other might be rather random and others in turn might be have been politically engineered in order to control a certain class of people.
A conservative might tend to think of everything as robustly following from real differences between the sexes and those sorts of "mechanics" as the above, and consider all of it is "natural" and should not be countered in the least (or else... "Nazis!", "Stalin!!!", "NAZIS!!" as some academical youtube celebrities would put it xD). A radfem might see a direct political oppressive behind each and every feature of the whole thing.  A liberal might think of those systems of meaning as purely conventional by now ( the end of history, that is :-P), a code there for we free liberated individuals to express themselves; sort of open source, so you can hack it, etc..  Sorry, I've beend doing some Adam Curtis to cope with my anxiety lately.

Now, can repeated socially and physically constrained behaviour generate identity? I think it definitely can. The problem is what kind of identity, how deep this identity can be.
The experience of wearing a uniform and being treated by people accordingly can definitely generate an identity. But does this identity have the same qualities as, let's say the identity attached to a political ideology which was chosen upon conscious reflection?  Do they stand on equal footing? How does each kind of identity work? We lack appropriate vocabulary. Deep, shallow, core... these metaphors do not seem very good tools to work with. Can we come up with better notions?  And provide operational definitions of them?  I'm rambling now.


(*) almost to the point of irrelevance, if we are to listen to the  Daphna Joels and Cornelia Fins out there; not everybody agrees


 

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#4 [url]

Xora wrote:
(...)
Some of those goals conflict with the other ones, so you can see why someone like me might still end up getting someone pregnant even if they didn't much feel like having sex. 
So see how that fits together with 'Asperger's Syndrome' or 'Plastic Brains' if you like. 

Then you see that a lot of the things that someone like Judith Butler rails against as being purely a cultural convention which she is being forced to uphold, are things that I'd really like to be doing that I feel I am not allowed to do because to do them would imply a dramatic fall in implied 'status', and probably vice-versa. 

I mean, if I'm really honest, I think I'd be perfectly happy, perhaps even ecstatic, to be like another Trisha Paytas, and anything more than that seems like extra unnecessary hard work just to try to keep up with everyone else. 


 

Thanks for the reflection, Xora.
What is this "plastic brains" thing?  How does it fit here?
I'm not entirely sure that's what Judith Butler says, but I haven't read her.
She gives a gist of her ideas in the video below. Maybe I'll try to find some more detailed introduction.

[url]

 

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#5 [url]

Well the plasticbrains thread came up here a few days ago
http://crossdreamlife.lefora.com/topic/992/Plasticbrains

but it's essentially just another way of describing the 'nerd', clustering. 
'HSP', mild autism, slowed physical and social development, indigo children, ADD, immaturity, high IQ, androgyny, queer, mental reality model building and process optimising mindset. Whatever it is you want to call it this year.

I mean, the 'Aspergers' self-identity thing only massively took off after the 'geek syndrome' article in wired, before that we were just the weird kids I guess. 

http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/trying-to-see-through-unified-theory-of.html

So to me it's sort of not quite getting 'it', or implicit social reality, and not knowing why, and mentally working overtime internally trying to bridge the gap between what other people claim as, or at least seem to perceive as, totally obvious in any given situation, and what you perceive, which is often just a kind of confusing sensory overload. 
http://bit.ly/2ru5hD7

Well, people like me would often say that 'NTs' are the ones with the problem, because they perceive everything though a lens of social-status-mediated rose-tinted reality goggles, and so can't see the real world, which makes them react in herd ways and makes strong emotions frighteningly contagious and makes them dangerously easy to manipulate en-masse through demagoguery.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/aug/23/neurotribes-legacy-autism-steve-silberman-book-review-saskia-baron

But, we are also just as easy to manipulate in slightly different ways, like the extreme defensiveness against the insinuation that we might not be getting 'it' leads to all kinds of overcompensatory behaviours and we go scurrying off to research the issue in greater depth and write long emails or blog posts to each other desperately vindicating our position, which to those who do just get 'it', seems utterly dysfunctional in its own way. 

I've had brief glimpses of 'it' on and off during my life, but it was never really long enough for me to figure out what was happening. 
When I ramped up my hormones and found a perfect 'sweet spot' the usual 'fuzz' I experience finally totally disappeared and I did just get 'it', I was just totallly one of the girls and part of the tribe, and seem to perfectly synch up between my body/emotions and physicality.
But it only lasted like a day, and the next day was back to fuzz and defensiveness again, and I couldn't really understand how I could have said/done the things I had the day before.
It really is better to be on the inside of the tribe than the outside and I often really envy those that have never had to do it all 'the hard way', even though I often also can't respect them, if that makes any sense.
They have seemingly just glided about protected by their tribal cohesion and social bubble land and haven't had to do the hard job of cognitively understanding things in greater depth, and so just seem really vapid on any in-depth topic you care to bring up, but at the same time I envy their ease and charisma. 

But I do now know roughly what I'm missing out on in terms of subconscious pro-social group cohesion, and it's something that I really want to experience again for a bit longer, and that I now know I probably do have the capacity to be fully socially functional as a female, if I was prepared to go that far, when I would probably still physically stick out a mile. 
It is something you just 'feel' rather than learn, but it would have helped a lot just to have felt it and synced up properly from the age of 10 onwards and skipped years of confusing 'fuzz' and extreme defensiveness. 

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#6 [url]

I see. I can relate to what you say. I guess NTs stands for "neurotipical" here. One thing one realizes after talking a lot to people that "get it", is that each of them might get something very different from the same situation. That's a consolation, I guess.    

Did you have any theories regarding what set you out of sync with people again? Was it some sort of fear response? Some situation where you felt compelled to overrationalize the interaction again? How would you describe it?

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#7 [url]

Well, again I think people mix up cause and effect here. 
Basically neurologically/emotionally I am at the Trisha Paytas end of the gender 'spectrum', so it's kind of like I'd naturally just want to flip my hair and try to act all cute and bubbly, and people would give me lots of free stuff because they really really want to get into my pants. 

Except well, what's in my pants isn't what they want to see, and boys who act too much like they are entitled princesses really don't go down well with other people. 
So it's not one particular traumatic experience that cause me to socially disconnect, from my point of view it's a whole lifetime of them, starting well before I was even consciously aware of what I could possibly be doing 'wrong' or what that might imply to other people. 

Like by the time you are 6 or 7 you've already figured out 'I better not play with that again or express a preference for this if I don't want to get beaten up again', but it isn't very obvious what you should do instead of that, except to stay safely out of everyone else's way. 

So sitting quietly by yourself in the library is considered relatively harmless if not even marginally socially desirable behaviour, and then you find that reading lots of books and building up a complex abstract model of reality actually feels really good. That's where you pick up the addiction for so-called 'insight porn', which you can actually use as the basis for a career in academia or STEM.

I didn't conciously figure out that I actually did emotionally 'ping' with more really-feminine flirtatious activities and being around girly-girls, until I was about 14, and by that time I was already several years into a single sex school, so barely saw any girls till I was 18, and by that time it was so deep in the kind of 'you must never let on to anyone else that you are a tranny', that while I found it really emotionally comforting being included in a group of girls, I still didn't conciously want to 'go there' and tell anyone about it or ever get too close to anyone. 

I also think that the rising levels of testosterone from male puberty make things a lot worse. Like before I was 14 I might have been bottom of the heap socially, but I was actually near the top of the heap academically. You know, if you act like a bimbo you are just painting a target on yourself a mile wide, but if you curb virtually everything excessively feminine about yourself and aim for the Hermione Granger type, well other people might still find you bookish and a really annoying know-it-all, but at least you can block them out and still aim for the top, job wise. 
If you then find you can't even concentrate enough to reach what you think is your real potential academically, well then you are screwed, you are just a bumbling loser with a constant low-level headache, who can't do very much outside of school and mandatory extra-curriculars but curl up in a ball and feel sorry for yourself, so no social life at all, and you also fail to turn in any required coursework, or what you do do isn't anywhere close to the standard you expected, so you're a total failure in every dimension. 
I'm more like this one, like that
http://transsexual.org/mystory.html

So I knew I felt really bad, but I had no idea what I could do to feel better, except I could get some relief by blocking everything out and spending all my time 'studying', what I was studying didn't matter, it was just a constant need for mental stimulation just to calm me down enough to barely function in other areas.

So a deep level part of me will always feel like people should be happy just to have me around and I'm owed a bunch of stuff just for bothering to show up, which still doesn't go down well with other people if you act like to much of a diva, even if you maybe have developed some vaguely useful enough computer skills to think you can justify it.
So I'm still kind of constantly disappointed with life, no matter what happens, because not only am I not and now can't ever be a really hot girl, I'm also not yet rich enough not to have to continually care to moderate my personality down to an acceptable enough level anymore, because it always costs me way more energy that other people think just to come across as a total nerd rather than an out and out bimbo.
I can just about pull it off, but not while holding a full-time job. I'm currently working 3 days a week and just basically sleeping through the rest. 

Doing the HRT thing takes a lot of that low-level constant stress away, at which point I can slightly more frequently work up to using my brain a bit more, and so do enough to attempt to justify the more diva aspects of my personality, where my software or general technical problem solving skills actually sometimes make other people enough money that they are prepared to put up with me and to keep me marginally employed.

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#8 [url]

That's very interesting. I like the term "insight porn" very much. I went into STEM following this insatiable lust as well.

Doing terribly there lately, partly because the cognitive and emotional loads of trying to figure all "this" stuff out are crushing me.
«If you then find you can't even concentrate enough to reach what you think is your real potential academically, well then you are screwed, you are just a bumbling loser with a constant low-level headache, who can't do very much outside of school and mandatory extra-curriculars but curl up in a ball and feel sorry for yourself, so no social life at all, and you also fail to turn in any required coursework, or what you do do isn't anywhere close to the standard you expected, so you're a total failure in every dimension. »
Yep...

However, my question was not referring to the phenomenon in general, but to that particular moment when you felt connected to other people for a while and then you lost it (so the word theory was maybe misleading). I wasn't thinking in terms of trauma (I'm not a trauma fan), but rather more dynamically. Was what the thing that triggered the disconnection on that particular occasion. On view of what you say it seems the connection was not on a very solid base. But I'm wondering whether certain thought patterns could allow one to sustain that state long enough for it to put down roots.
[ I'll grab the chance to recommend the work of this guy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Watzlawick
It's only tangentially connected to the discussion, but anyhow . ]

«I am at the Trisha Paytas end of the gender 'spectrum', so it's kind of like I'd naturally just want to flip my hair and try to act all cute and bubbly, and people would give me lots of free stuff because they really really want to get into my pants. »

You do seem absolutely convinced it is immutable. How did you come to the conclusion this is really something hard-wired and not a reaction to years of deprivation and being forced into a personality completely skewed to the opposite side?


 

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#9 [url]

Oh, I see, well I think what caused the disconnect to happen again was just that it took a particular confluence of my cyclical biochemistry to achieve that state of peace and clarity, which was a state that couldn't be maintained long term, and may never be reached again without completely reversing my body chemistry. 
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/how-female-hormones-can-make-a-bloody-mess-of-your-mental-health

Say I have a brain module that really really wants to be a girl, and another brain module that really really doesn't want to admit defeat, and the two continually fight it out, and my outward behaviour is usually a compromise between the two positions. Survive, don't lose face, protect your reputation, get at least some of what you want and some enjoyment out of life, do a good job etc.
Objectively I do not need to behave like a total slut, even if I want to be, even if my 'mirror neurons' trigger really strong copying desires when I'm around sexy girls. But, my female sexual orgasm response is really really mindblowingly strong, like someone could literally fuck my brains out and I'd absolutely love it physically, but I'm equally determined never to submit to another man, and put myself at that kind of physical risk, so I never let it happen in real life. 
It's possible to get by with that kind of compromise in place, but not indefinetly, basically about once a year I really really need to have an orgasm somehow, or I'll go into a spiral of paranoia or depression, but I can't do anything to myself to make it happen, and for a long time the 'best' thing I could do was binge eat a whole large pizza from somewhere, follow it with a bunch of ice cream and go watch a movie or something, something to totally futz with my bodychemistry and let my mind escape for a couple of hours.
I can use my willpower to choose not to behave how I emotionally want, but I can't will myself into behaving how I emotionally don't want, if that makes any sense. I just don't get those kinds of emotional drives to beat anyone else, not sexually, not physically, nor even sublimated into things like office gossip or computer games. I don't care, I can't learn, that stuff just isn't in my head, ok, I guess I have some small urges for revenge, and I have on occasion pinched other peopls stuff when I thought they wouldn't notice, but the idea of ever doing something to prove how physically strong/tough I am just never ever enters my head. I play computer games to have adventures that I can't have in real life, and to act in ways that I can't in real life, like actually being a pole dancer, or rocking out in rock band or something, but not because I want to get a higher score than the guy down the road. 

So you can strongly motivate me with reverse psychology, accuse me of being wrong or less than perfect, and if it's in an area I pride myself in, I will fight tooth and nail to prove I am right, even if nearly kills me, I will try to prove I am right, try to maintain my self-percieved innocence, and try to do the 'right' thing, but don't expect me to enjoy watching other people play football, it ain't never going to happen, I'd rather see a broadway show.
Those kinds of experiential/emotional-response/and perceptual filter parts of my personality are fixed and immutable as far as I can tell, and not the result of any kind of social experiences after birth. 

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 2 times.

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#10 [url]

oreb wrote:
You sound like an expert in gender swap anime. Which one would you recommend the most?  Ranma was quite popular growing up, but I somehow managed to avoid it. I'm really good at avoiding things.  

More in Manga, and not an expert, but I have ferreted quite a few out in a few obsessive crossdreaming episodes.  Ranma is my favorite, but not really for the TG aspect.  I find the whole manga series (and I HIGHLY recommend reading the manga first as the anime is no where near as good) hilarious and I love the character of Ryouga.  He reminds me of myself in so many different ways both in personality and in our lack of any sense of direction!

I really loved the anime movie "Kimi no Na wa" or "Your name."  It is the source of my current avatar and I made a post about it a while back:

http://crossdreamlife.lefora.com/topic/467/Upcoming-Japanese-CROSS-DREAMER-Movie#.WSFZaesrK7Q

Comedy-wise I would  recommend "Boku to Kanjo No XXX" also known as "Mine and Her's secret" or "My Barbaric Girlfriend."  I also Loved "Osananajimi wa Onna no Ko ni Naare."  If you like ecchi Humor I would recommend Futaba-kun Change.  It is what Ranma 1/2 would be like had Ranma been written by a pervy dude.

For a more serious read I would recommend "Nozomi Nozomu" and "Balance Policy"  

That said, we actually do have a TG Anime/Manga thread here.  But no one has posted to it in a while:

I don't think the video is referring only to gender expression, but I'm not sure the meaning of the term is to me.  The problem for me is more that it glosses too much over over details while losing too much time with references and boilerplate abstract statements that don't always add that much.
Physicality + social expectations constrain behaviour; repeated behaviour generates identification.  That seems to be the idea, more or less.  
That could be.  But that is the way gender seems to come off as according to my admittedly limited exposure to Butler et al.  As if they treat gender as if it was only about expression.  I feel it is vastly more complicated than that.  

I agree that we don't come preprogrammed with male or female behaviour.
There are certain instinctual behaviours (mostly having to do with mating) where there is a consistent difference between male and female; this also seems to be true, although to a much lesser extent* for certain temperamental variables. Sure, it is absurd to think that all the miriad of minute gendered behaviours that a culture has is preprogrammed in some way. Particularly since those can change a lot from culture to culture.

However, I don't think those behaviours can be written off as only "arbitrary conventions" for some fundamental gender identity to latch on.
They form a system with a certain degree of internal consistency (in a loose sense of the word, not the logical one) and consistency with people's bodies, which are obviously gendered. Let me try to give some example.

I remember reading how in the Stanford Prison experiment prisoners, who were forced to wear some sort fo gown, started behaving in ways which were more stereotipically feminine. No, I don't think that was because they were feeling "emasculated" [;-)]. There is probably a certain extra degree of perceived physical vulnerability that comes with wearing that type of clothing (probably the reason why it was chosen) which compels any person who wears it to move in a certain way.
Also how when I was an adolescent and obsessed about my gynecomastia I acquired a couple of pacifying gestures around my chest which one could see as feminine. This was a time where I was protecting my "100% normal boy"-identity with KGBesque efficiency, so I really don't think any sort expression of a female identity was involved; I think in that case it was more that the thought of your chest as vulnerable and potentially a subject of negative attention tends to trigger the same set of responses regardless of who you are.

One could say culture then comes and abstracts all of this into some genereal feminine and masculine categories and a bunch of other stuff. The meanings it imposes on all of this mess of behaviours can be totally removed from this more basic bodily and social mechanisms that partially power them. Actually, there are all sorts of complicated feedback loops. Examples as those above are just the base level; those behaviours will in turn trigger certain reactions and so on and so on. And culture informs those reactions from the very first iteration in ways that are mostly not under conscious control.
My point is that it is not as simple as somebody actively chosing certain behaviours among those culturually codified in a certain way. You are swimming in the midst of very strong currents.
I am pretty much in total agreement with you on the first part, and I think you make a great point on the second.  That said, my own point was that most of gender behavior is cultural and learned.  But, I agree that some behaviour were probably adapted due to actual physical differences between men and women.

Having a more bulky body might imposes certain mechanical constraints on the ways this body can move; the possibility of being perceived as threatening by other people (at a basic instinctual level) might further constrain this body's movement. Eventually this constrained movement might end up being expected from all of the members of the class of people who tend to have bulkier bodies, regardless of whether they are actually bulky or not, as well as entangled with all sorts of connotations like "practicality", "lack of emotion", "lack of empathy", "stoicism" or even "competence", "authority" (:-s). (directly or just through a middle notion of masculinity? is not clear)

Some of this connotations might still bear a certain connection with certain "basic mechanics" of human interaction, some other might be rather random and others in turn might be have been politically engineered in order to control a certain class of people.
A conservative might tend to think of everything as robustly following from real differences between the sexes and those sorts of "mechanics" as the above, and consider all of it is "natural" and should not be countered in the least (or else... "Nazis!", "Stalin!!!", "NAZIS!!" as some academical youtube celebrities would put it xD). A radfem might see a direct political oppressive behind each and every feature of the whole thing.  A liberal might think of those systems of meaning as purely conventional by now ( the end of history, that is :-P), a code there for we free liberated individuals to express themselves; sort of open source, so you can hack it, etc..  Sorry, I've beend doing some Adam Curtis to cope with my anxiety lately.
I am still following and have little to no disagreement.

Now, can repeated socially and physically constrained behaviour generate identity? I think it definitely can. The problem is what kind of identity, how deep this identity can be.
The experience of wearing a uniform and being treated by people accordingly can definitely generate an identity. But does this identity have the same qualities as, let's say the identity attached to a political ideology which was chosen upon conscious reflection?  Do they stand on equal footing? How does each kind of identity work? We lack appropriate vocabulary. Deep, shallow, core... these metaphors do not seem very good tools to work with. Can we come up with better notions?  And provide operational definitions of them?  I'm rambling now.
I think, that in a way it can go both ways.  Behaviour can generate an identity; and an idenity can generate behavior. Lets say an adolescent's best friend becomes a goth and said adolescent decides they want to be a goth with their friend.  Thus they have formed an identity and seek to display this identity to others through their behavior.  They start wearing white make up and won't wear anything but black clothes.  

Ultimately, how one identity one assumes measures up depending upon how much one values those identities.  A political identity might be more important to a person who loves arguing, and not so much to a person who hates conflict.

One of the nice things about vocabulary is that if you lack the words for something, you can always create it.  Whether it catches on, and to what degree depends on the rest of society.    

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About the "acquired a few pacifying gestures around my chest" bit, 
you are thinking cause and effect again, 

I'm a boy, I'm growing boobs, I mustn't let anyone see that I'm growing boobs or they will make fun of me, exposing my chest around other people makes me feel vulnerable, therefore I'll keep my arms folded over my chest which feels good.., that behaviour that I've clearly adopted lately is often classified as feminine, so feminine behaviour must be learned behaviour not innate, and so relatively arbitrary behaviours are being culturally enforced on us unwillingly, or something to that effect.  

But maybe you just always felt vulnerable and didn't know why until you had a conscious thought connecting that emotion with your conscious aweness of your gynecomastia, then pinned a pre-existing effect to a cause.  Maybe you always folded your arms like that but just didn't notice you were doing it until you thought you actually had a reason to hide something. 

But then you see something like this, where having decided on an outcome, she's now looking back and identifying previously unknown or unconsidered causes for effects that she had previously catergorised or maybe not even considered before. 

https://the-orbit.net/splainyouathing/2016/09/05/trans-autistic-weird-common/

It wasn’t (just) a sensory sensitivity making me want to shave all my body hair, or that made it feel good, right, and mandatory to keep it down. It wasn’t nothing that I occasionally felt flashes of terror related to removing my shirt in public, long before I had breasts. It’s not cis for my entire fantasy life to start with the idea of my body being feminized. It’s not cis to have detailed fashion preferences for the women in one’s life, that somehow also feature in that fantasy life. All of those things didn’t make sense before. And that’s over now.

Which is kind of what I did once before on having been formally diagnosed with Aspergers at 27, pinned things I had previously considered to be my personality flaws on the dreaded 'disease model', as it separated my actual anxiety feelings from my guilt over having those feelings and so forth, and made me feel less bad about being 'weird'.

But the 'disease model' is sufficient for explaining your past, and giving you the 'not guilty' resolution over everything you feel you had previously suffered without a sufficient explanation, but it isn't very much good for thinking about your future, except as a perpetual continuation of the same kind of anxiety and suffering till you drop dead from exhaustion or whatever.

Learning to escape the disease model and co-creating/accepting the existence of a naturally occuring if slightly unusual variations of human sexual dimorphism model, with a path to some kind of treatment, not gene therapy or psychological or behavioural therapy, but hopefully with an eventually happy outcome, seems like a much better personal resolution, until you also have to consider the potential future stigma you will inevitably face for accepting the incredibly scary treatment path, which yes can set off another multi-year cycle of rumination, and a lot of defensiveness aimed not so much at yourself this time but at the 'oppressors' who are clearly just 'transphobic' and 'heteronormative', or your parents who couldn't see how much you were suffering because they always saw your natural to you but apparently aberrant to them behaviour entirely through the medically authorities constructed 'disease model' and didn't just look on you as their daughter struggling so terribly hard to pretend to be the wonderful boy that they had always wanted or expected him to be. 

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 5 times.

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