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May 9 17 3:13 AM

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Felix does some transgender theology over at Transcend Movement.

Instead of getting bogged down in Bible verses and Koran suras, he points to God the creator. If God really means that being gay or trans is a sin, why is there so much same-sex sex and gender bending among animals? Good questions, indeed!

http://transcendmovement.com/is-being-gay-or-transgender-a-sin-in-christianity/
I imagine that when fundamentalist Christians hear of such behaviour they try and sweep it under the carpet. Indeed, I have heard religious people say that animals are stupid and don’t know what they are doing and if some of them go around being gay then we should just ignore it. However, even if we agree that they are dumb animals and don’t know what they are doing, it doesn’t change the fact that God is the designer of their brains and therefore chose to include this ‘stupid’ behaviour in their behavioural programming. This leads us once more to the question: why would he include homosexual behaviour in their neural architecture if he hated it so much?
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#1 [url]

May 9 17 10:54 AM

A couple of weeks ago after the election was called in this country, the Leader of the party I support was given a tough time over this in several interviews. He is quite a devout Christian but has voted nearly every time for the most Liberal pro-LGBT rights motions .. Some people may be suspicious because of his faith but a lot of it was just people trying to make trouble for a political opponent...

Now, I try not to bring my Party Politics to this forum - I'm one of very few regulars here who is British.. but this meant I was thinking of this dilemma and this is what I think.....

'Sin' is a concept thought up by the men who drew up the religions... its not even drawn up by the Gods themselves (should they exist!) Certainly Felix makes a good point about homosexuality in nature Of course Religious fundamentalist often say that homosexuality is 'unnatural - and do Homophobes without a religious argument, and Felix's point shows they are on very shaky ground

But going back to 'Sin'. as defined in religions - I personally DON'T CARE! I just don't recognise 'sin' as being a concept of any importance to me... For me being gay is, for those who are, natural and life affirming and so deserves to be called 'Right' not 'wrong'... and Liberal Christians (like my party's leader) and Muslims will have to decide for themselves what sin is to them.. I'll judge them on how they act towards each other, not on a pint of theology which, for me , is unimportant.

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#3 [url]

May 9 17 1:42 PM

rubbercripple wrote:
Applying the word Homosexual to animals or non humans is ridiculous. As is gender bending!

Why is it ridiculous?  Do you think all animals are asexual?  That they reproduce via budding?  That there are not gender roles in the animal kingdom?

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#5 [url]

May 9 17 2:57 PM

If we see homosexuality as created by God, then it can't be a sin. Or it can be? What if God created homosexuality as a test? If you fight your urges, you are saint, if not ... be prepared for eternal fire.

What if homosexuality is created by Satan, as diabolical corruption, and tramsgender people are possessed by demons? This corruption itself is not a sin, but following corrupted path is definitely a sin.

Why this test (or corruption) extends onto animals, is there any logic, that is another question.

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#6 [url]

May 9 17 6:44 PM

Lost247365 wrote:

rubbercripple wrote:Applying the word Homosexual to animals or non humans is ridiculous. As is gender bending!

Why is it ridiculous?  Do you think all animals are asexual?  That they reproduce via budding?  That there are not gender roles in the animal kingdom?

 
It was precisely because of my interest in biology since my early teens that I recognized how gender variant nature is.  The fact that there are so many varieties of animals in the same classification is indication that nature doesn't create just one model of an animal.  Human development is no exception.  I wouldn't be following gender variation for as long as I have if I thought it was all a joke, and I accept all of this in spite of living a "righteous" life by social standards. 

Last Edited By: lal2828 May 10 17 4:03 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#7 [url]

May 10 17 12:44 AM

Applying the word Homosexual to animals or non humans is ridiculous. As is gender bending!


Complicated? Yes. Ridiculous? No.

Homosexuality is a very new concept and refers to a modern interpretation of same-sex sex among men and women. There is no way we can know that the same-sex activities found among animals are caused by the exact same motivation as the one among human beings. But we do know that there is a lot of same-sex sex going on among them, especially among birds and mammals.

We also know that in some species we also see same-sex bonding, and that animals of the same biological sex may raise offspring together. This is quite common among birds, where both male and female couples have been known to raise chicks together. The fact that they do get offspring indicates that these birds are more like bisexuals than homosexuals, but their existence proves Felix' point: God loves deviants!

More about "gay animals" here.

So what about gender bending. Again, since we cannot read the mind of an animal we cannot know if they are wired as the opposite sex. Same sex behavior (including lordosis in male rats -- i.e. they perform like the stereotypical female during courship) may indicate transgender inclinations, but this may also be caused by sexual variation only (in the sense gay men can be receptive when having sex).  

What we do know, however, is that a lot of species have males and females that in many respect behaves like the "opposite sex". Indeed, in some species of mammals and birds we find several morphs of both males and female, including males that look and behave very much like females and females with different looks and mannerism. Among some animals, like the clown fish (Dinsey's Nemo), nearly all members of the group are sex neutral, with the exception of the leader, which is female, and the next in command, which is male. When the female alpha dies, the male beta turns into a female and becomes the leader.

So yes, we can safely say that God (or Nature) loves gender bending.

More about "transgender animals" animals here.


 

Last Edited By: jackmolay May 10 17 4:08 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#8 [url]

May 10 17 12:52 AM

From Destabilizing Heteronormativity by Lisa Wade, PhD  

A same-sex penguin couple, on the right in the picture below, were segregated from the rest of the penguins because they kept stealing eggs.  Sneakily, they would replace the egg with a rock and take the real egg for themselves.  The zoo keepers eventually decided to give them the eggs of another penguin pair who had a poor record of parenting and, the story says, they are among the best parents at the zoo (via Alas).

image

And yes, black swans are actually the black swans of animal sexuality and gender:
Like other swans, the black swan is largely monogamous, pairing for life (about 6% divorce rate).[19] Recent studies have shown that around a third of all broods exhibit extra-pair paternity.[20] An estimated one-quarter of all pairings are homosexual, mostly between males.[21] They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs.[22][23][24]

Wikipedia.

And here's a female pair of albatross nesting in Hawaii. Aren't they lovely? Ridiculous, no.

 image

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#10 [url]

May 10 17 12:05 PM

Why do you think the word homosexual is human only?

What word do you think should be used to describe animals that are sexually attracted to same sex members of the same species?

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#11 [url]

May 10 17 1:21 PM

Lost, then we may as well say animals can be gay, lesbian, anything in between. I don't think animals have sexual orientations quite like us even when same sex situations are seen between them.

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#13 [url]

May 10 17 5:49 PM

rubbercripple wrote:
Lost, then we may as well say animals can be gay, lesbian, anything in between. I don't think animals have sexual orientations quite like us even when same sex situations are seen between them.

Yes they can, and yes they do.  It has been well documented.  

Don't forget, humans are animals too.  Sexual orientation is something all sexually reproducing animals experience.  Its not a human thing.  It is a sexual animal thing:





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#14 [url]

May 10 17 8:11 PM

jackmolay wrote:
Felix does some transgender theology over at Transcend Movement.

Instead of getting bogged down in Bible verses and Koran suras, he points to God the creator. If God really means that being gay or trans is a sin, why is there so much same-sex sex and gender bending among animals? Good questions, indeed!

http://transcendmovement.com/is-being-gay-or-transgender-a-sin-in-christianity/
I imagine that when fundamentalist Christians hear of such behaviour they try and sweep it under the carpet. Indeed, I have heard religious people say that animals are stupid and don’t know what they are doing and if some of them go around being gay then we should just ignore it. However, even if we agree that they are dumb animals and don’t know what they are doing, it doesn’t change the fact that God is the designer of their brains and therefore chose to include this ‘stupid’ behaviour in their behavioural programming. This leads us once more to the question: why would he include homosexual behaviour in their neural architecture if he hated it so much?

Seems more like Felix is arguing a case for homosexuality being fine via Deism than he is for arguing that being LGBTQ is not a sin in the Abrahamic religions.  Which is fine with me.  Back when I was a believer I used to say that god gave us a consciense, the ability to tell good from evil, specifically so we could tell what was true and what was fake in things like the bible.  Even now, I firmly believe that if there is one all powerful god it is probably the god of Deism/Thomas Paine or of Pantheism/Spinoza.

But honestly, I feel trying to argue for homsexuality not being a sin using any of the Abrahamic religions to be a fools errand.  The problem of arguing this or that is or isn't a sin in the Abrahamic religions, and in Christianity specifically, is that the foundational texts of these religions contradict themselves constantly.  The bible, itself, makes over 63,000+ contradictions.  Hell you can't even go 2 pages without a contradiction.  In Genesis one it says that god made animals and birds first then man and woman.  In Genesis 2 it says god made man first, and then beasts and birds, and then woman.  It didn't make it one page without contradicting itself.

When it comes to homosexuality it is most infamously said that homosexuality is an abomination in leviticus as part of the old law.  Then again, it also says eating shell fish or wearing clothes of two different types is an abomination as well.  Of course, we don't follow those rules anymore because the law only lasted until the birth of John, or they were abolished by the crucifixtion or something similar.  

This despite the fact that Jesus directly said that the law was ever lasting and that anyone who broke the law wouldn't be allowed into heaven.  Although, in the same book he says not to judge and that the law can be summed up as the golden rule.  I don't see homosexuality being an act worthy of the death penalty (or much less discrimination) is in anyway related to the golden rule.  Then, to make things even more confusing, Jesus/Yeshua actually affirmed a gay couple...

Or at least that is what you would think if it were not for the fact that the Christian religion decided to accept the opinions of a man who was barely one year old when Jesus/Yeshua died and spent most of his life as one of Christianities most zealous persecutors... and once a bigot always a bigot as shown by the fact that Saul thinks homosexuals deserve to die.

But even if you reject Saul/Paul/Asshole who ruins the new testament/whatever you want to call him, you still have to contend with the fact that God at one point told his followers that homosexuality was an abomination at one point, and since Jesus claimed to be God himself (except when he talks of god as a seperatre entity or when he thought god had forsaken him) and therefore one has to contend with the question of why did Jesus, as god, said those horrible things in the first place?

It is a absolute mess.  And while I do think some LGBTQ Christians and their allies have done an absolutely lovely job of trying to refute the idea of homosexuality as a sin, in the end i feel it is like the curates egg.  So long as the fondational texts of the religions have these hateful verse, they are never going to succeed.  In my opinion, they would be more successful if they just state that the bible is flawed and then pull a Thomas Jefferson and just REMOVE all the racist, homophobic, transphobic, and sexist passages (as well as all of Leviticus) from the bible entirely as false dogma.  I mean if it took until the 5th centuary before their was agreement on what books to include; then given all that has happened since then it only makes sense it could use a few corrections now.

Then, there would be no more need of all these logical gymnastics people have to make as those verses would no longer be there.

Last Edited By: Lost247365 May 10 17 8:14 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#15 [url]

May 10 17 8:16 PM

PipX wrote:
But going back to 'Sin'. as defined in religions - I personally DON'T CARE! I just don't recognise 'sin' as being a concept of any importance to me... For me being gay is, for those who are, natural and life affirming and so deserves to be called 'Right' not 'wrong'... and Liberal Christians (like my party's leader) and Muslims will have to decide for themselves what sin is to them.. I'll judge them on how they act towards each other, not on a pint of theology which, for me , is unimportant.

Beautifully said.

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#16 [url]

May 10 17 8:37 PM

Lost, I think animals engage in same sex situations for other reasons, pleasure, some sort of group / social thing, or because maybe there is a situation where either male or female out number each other. I don't think it's a similar thing to a human romantic situation or they show "homosexual" behaviour for life. Pipx.....biology......trans animals?

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#17 [url]

May 11 17 3:03 PM

rubbercripple wrote:
Lost, I think animals engage in same sex situations for other reasons, pleasure, some sort of group / social thing, or because maybe there is a situation where either male or female out number each other. I don't think it's a similar thing to a human romantic situation or they show "homosexual" behaviour for life. Pipx.....biology......trans animals?

Humans engage in sex behaviour for those same exact reasons too.  

The thing is we also KNOW that animals also do engage in sex as a result of sexual attraction. Peacocks are attracted to others based on how colorful their tail feathers are.  That is physical attraction. And for some animals it isn't because of a lack of opposite sex mates.  For instance, about 8% of sheep tend to show exclusively homosexual behaviour while 18% are bisexual.  The rest are heterosexual. 


About 8 percent of domestic rams display preferences for other males as sexual partners. Scientists don't believe it's related to dominance or flock hierarchy; rather, their typical motor pattern for intercourse is merely directed at rams instead of ewes.

"They're one of the few species that have been systematically studied, so we're able to do very careful and controlled experiments on sheep," Roselli said. "We used rams that had consistently shown exclusive sexual preference for other rams when they were given a choice between rams and ewes."


As for transgender animals, it depends on what  you mean.  Do you mean transgender in the most oversimplified case of a male stuck in a female body?  A definition that doesn't fit a great many self-identified transgender people including many transgender members of this very site?  

If that is what you mean, then there is no way currently to check that as animals don't talk.  We can neither prove or disprove that.  

Same goes even if you use an broader definition like someone who experiences gender dysphoria.  A dog can't go up to you and say they are sad that they are not female.  About the only way you can tell is by their behavior and if their is not much difference in behavior from males to females it is going to be almost impossible to tell if they are transgender or just homosexual.  Imagine, a male rat that exclusively takes a female sex position; is that rat just homosexual or transgender?  There is no way to know for sure.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1161821

But, if you mean transgender is the broadest sense then there are several.  Sexual mimicry is a thing:


Then there are rare female lions that grow manes and act as males, and female hyneas regularly grow genitalia indistinguishable from male hyneas and are often the alpha:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2106866-five-wild-lionesses-grow-a-mane-and-start-acting-like-males/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/12/23/scientists-discover-genderfluid-lioness-who-looks-acts-and-roars-like-a-male/
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141028-the-truth-about-spotted-hyenas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-penis

Clown fish actually Change sex.  That is pretty transgender if you ask me:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/fishtree_07


And then there are birds that mimic the opposite sex for their lifetime.  They are rare but so are transgender humans.

https://daily.jstor.org/transgender-proclivities-in-animals/

But the main point that needs to be taken away is that humans are animals and ipso facto: any innate behavior pattern found in humans is certain to be found in other animal species.  There might be slight differences but it will still be there.  

Gender Identiy is a natural biological result of an intersex of the brain, and such a phenomena is certain to happen in other species too.

Last Edited By: Lost247365 May 11 17 3:18 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#18 [url]

May 11 17 4:01 PM

I have to be careful here because going to far down this line of argument could lead me to becoming a vegetarian, and I like bacon and chicken too much...

But generally | agree with most of what Vaydra says - in fact very nearly all of it. I suspect society among other species isn't a whole lot different from Human society... For sure as a species we have developed a whole lot of things, and I'm prepared to accept we are the only species with the Internet!

But as 'societies' I'm pretty sure other species have them.. and language too. I read a lot of learned pieces that say 'what separates man kind from other species is we have language... but I think in dog barks or whale song there is a whole lot of meaning we just don't know of....

and as for sexuality... there are many cases of animals in zoos losing a member of hthe group, and quite obviously grieving

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#19 [url]

May 12 17 10:10 AM

Lost, thank you for the links. I'm well aware of same sex situations in animals, I'm not sure we can call it the same as human sexuality though. As you say, they cannot talk, how can we be 100% sure? It's us/ humans perceiving it that way. Perhaps there are homosexual members here who would give their thoughts? I don't know anyone's orientation here actually.

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#20 [url]

May 12 17 11:00 AM

rubbercripple wrote:
Lost, thank you for the links. I'm well aware of same sex situations in animals, I'm not sure we can call it the same as human sexuality though. As you say, they cannot talk, how can we be 100% sure? It's us/ humans perceiving it that way. Perhaps there are homosexual members here who would give their thoughts? I don't know anyone's orientation here actually.

We can be pretty sure on the Sheep as 1) Its life long 2) its not due to lack of mates 3) its exclusive 4) They show the same type of brain feminization that has been shown in homosexual male humans as per one of the links.

For the record, I am asexual.

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