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Jan 16 17 7:10 AM

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I dunno, but I really don't get a lot of what these people are arguing for. 

I guess I've never walked down the street and been catcalled, I've never had someone proposition me, (well sorta..),  I've never had someone have sex with me (with or) without my consent, so I've never been at risk of getting pregnant, etc. etc. So I don't really know what it's like to grow up to 'be a woman', but I do sometimes think that a lot of the stuff that they are having a go about is really overblown, because having grown up on the other side of the fence, although I was probably excluded from a lot of the more 'macho' culture in my teens, I really don't think anyone I knew was remotely into perpetuating a 'rape culture' or anything at all like that, and if it ever existed, it was probably before the 1980s, and nowadays it's really just yet more scare tactics for the more masculine women to keep the more feminine women firmly in line as much as the more masculine men scare us to keep us in line.

Like the boys at my school were desperate to get laid when they were 16 sure, but none found it quite that easy, and most of them probably didn't manage it till they were well into their 20s, despite how much they may have bragged about 'how many fit birds they pulled at the weekend' etc. 

So supposing I one day went outside as a probably less-than-convincing transwoman, my top priorities would be roughly..
1) Don't get yourself outright murdered.
2) Don't get yourself arrested.
3) Don't get yourself beaten up.
4) Don't get mugged and pissed on in the street.
5) Don't get called out for using the 'wrong' bathroom.
6) Don't get pulled aside and frisked when going through a security x-ray at an airport while still sporting the wrong genitalia..
7) Don't get outright refused entry at a shop or restaurant.
8) Don't get totally refused employment purely due to your size/appearance or employment history, regardless of your other capabilities.

Well, at that rate things like the supposed 'gender pay gap' and 'glass ceiling' or 'lack of affordable childcare', 'sizeism' etc. are way way way down the list of problems I'd probably face.

I mean, I'd hazard a guess that there are quite a few people like us, perhaps 15-20 years older than me, really heavily invested in male lives, actually classed as now being 'above' that 'glass ceiling', having made it all the way to the board room, or the country club, or whatever these people are clamouring for, now doing really high-stress and/or high-profile jobs as doctors and lawyers, if not actual CEOs, (and yes, possibly even having 6-7 figure jobs and bonuses..), and yet still pining for all their missed chances, their desired appearance, and the lives they have left unlived in the pursuit of either plain old self-protection or just avoiding parental disapproval, rather than the promise of 'big money', now living for the weekend and their chance to unwind a bit, while all the feminists are out to get what they have worked really hard for, often despite not actually having the same kind of intellect or creativity to match, and then blaming it on sexual descrimination when they find they don't get it so easily. 

It doesn't take that much talent just to gang up on people and complain, whereas it does take a hell of a lot to do what some of these people have done.

As a more-able-than-most trans woman, probably your best bet is still just to start your own business from scratch..
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No sign of 'glass ceiling' there, in one particular case even the sky itself wasn't the limit.. though they probably had to be somewhat 'world class' brains to manage what they did, (I mean, it surely takes some major engineering chops to be in a position to launch a new fleet of satellites, or research and develop a new line of pharmaceuticals), and it probably helps to come from a much wealthier/more entrepreneurial family, and most people don't get that kind of a head-start, etc. etc. 

But duh, some of these people are just amazing, despite the biological 'birth defect' that they found they had to get surgically remedied before they turned 50.. and if this is what some people born with 'female brains' can actually do, don't just complain about stuff, shut up and learn dammit..

Last Edited By: Xora Jan 16 17 7:39 AM. Edited 1 time

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#1 [url]

Jan 16 17 8:58 AM

@Xora

I have no hesitation choosing female to put on any of my online profiles, here or anywhere.  When I used to be on SecondLife, where I could have chosen a male character, I also chose a female character who looked the same as I do in real life (dark hair, big eyes, cute face).  So, given that I am comfortable with my female body, some would find it strange that I would join anti-feminism groups on Facebook, where I got banned twice (probably by feminists/TERFs).  I remember being informed by one of my White transwomen friends that even her transwomen friends had believed me to be a transwoman (which the TERFs hate), or a cis man (which all feminists hate), and even a Black man (cis or trans, because of my mocking words).  Yet, my public profile said simply that I am female. The algorithm on Facebook simply didn't fit for a Black-anti-feminist-transwoman, who is really a cute-little-curvy-light-skinned-minority-female-with-big-eyes-and-dark-hair.......and a mockingly bad attitude.  

As I found out from cis men and anti-feminist transwomen alike, especially transwomen who are math-and-science oriented and display male mannerism while wearing a dress and make-up, feminism is just politics that anyone can simply choose to buy into or not.  A female gender identity is bio-psychological.  The math-and-science thing is a wiring in the brain that makes some people more prone to logical subjects.  A taste for dresses and color is .... well mostly personal.  And the mannerism that is supposedly male or female can be....... well, social-constructed with some connection to the sense of gender identity in the bio-psychological component of the brain.  My point is that labels, behaviors, and identities don't have to fall into neat categories because human beings are not neat and organized beings.

As politics that arose around the late 1960s and 1970s (when I was born), feminism (second, and especially third wave) was very much aligned to the civil rights struggles of minorities.  Much of feminism and civil rights are about job and education opportunities.  Not too much emphasis goes into bio-psychology, history, and economics, on a personal or global level.  For example. rich princesses (cis-women) in the Middle East are not in the same situations as dormitory-college-girls-who-just moved-out-of-their-parents'-suburban-homes.  Along the same vein are MEN who may have bio-psychological gender issues and/or who may fall into similar social and economic situations as MOST feminists.  Now, feminism has trouble putting all of this together.  How do you define "female"? (because this is supposedly a female issue.) What is "feminism" really about ? (Education and job opportunities that many women already have?) And when has it really worked? (since some females prefer tradtional roles and behaviors, including lots of men!) 
  

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#2 [url]

Jan 16 17 11:33 AM

Xora wrote:
I dunno, but I really don't get a lot of what these people are arguing for. 

I guess I've never walked down the street and been catcalled, I've never had someone proposition me, (well sorta..),  I've never had someone have sex with me (with or) without my consent, so I've never been at risk of getting pregnant, etc. etc. So I don't really know what it's like to grow up to 'be a woman'


you've started writing your own answer. a good feminist could add a lot to your 'i've never' list.

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#3 [url]

Jan 16 17 2:32 PM

To some extent they have legitimate complaints I'm sure. I was never one of the 'phoar look at that..' brigade for obvious reasons, I'd sooner just mildly appreciate maybe a Natalie Portman type from afar than ever wolf-whistle anyone in person. I just don't get emotionally triggered like that, so I have no need to respond. 
I guess I'm just strange the other way, since I'd rather be the girl than get the girl I'm not even one for complimenting anyone else's appearance either, so I guess I'm just seen as unusually standoffish. 

Is it really that bad though? I mean if you don't go out dressed up looking for attention, surely it's not that hard to avoid it?
I do sort of understand the sexual assault thing maybe, it does seem like most girls have one or other rather unpleasant experience they can relate from before the age of 18. 
Perhaps I just have an unusually low libido, coz it's like I somehow managed to just go without for 16+ years so I sort of wonder why other people, of either sex, can't just resist temptation a bit more.

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#4 [url]

Mar 4 17 11:37 AM

TERF -- "Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist"

TERF's are cis-F radical feminsists who deny gender presentation identity to trans-women. The line of argumentation here is that trans-women do not experience the ontological/existential "reality" of growing up amidst the male-hegemonic world of  sex-essentialist priviledge. And a question posed by many radical feminists is, "Why would a person born into male entitlement deny that status and opt for a lesser socio/political gender niche? The argument extends to the biological basis for gender and that those born cis-M will never grasp what it means to be born cis-F.

I agree with the line of reason, but I do not agree with the rationale for exclusion.

My current position is that I'd like to see more inclusion with respect to the range of variation in gender presentation. My gender orientation is not a part-time hobby that I share on social media. I don't have my "boy" Allsion and my "girl" Allison. There is just me -- looking for options that trans-cend the hetero-normative dyad. When the uninformed presume that because I identify as somewhere "not cis-M" that accordingly I must aspire to cis-F and that makes me gay. That's the stereotype.

I am "gay" to the extent that I view myself aa a "stealth lesbian." LMAO Gender identity is not an either/or dyad.

Judith Butler, Ph.D. UC Berkeley, "Gender Theory," asserts that "gender is performed." This assertion derives from Speech Act Theory and the principle that socio-cultural behavior is socio-culturally mediated with the outcome being that our existential/ontological state is ineluctably determined by the unique human ability to communicate in language. Language is further extended to include cultural cues in dress and behavior. The manner in which we dress and behave is the performance of our gender identity.

The drift I get in these forums is that discussion centers around not so much "feminism" as the feminist issue of objectification of women.

Allison Wunderland's Transcend Dance
http://allisontranscend.blogspot.com/



 

Last Edited By: AllisonWunderland Mar 19 17 3:52 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#5 [url]

Mar 4 17 1:41 PM

Gender is not performed, gender is felt. It's not what you say, it's how you feel. It's emotions, goals, desires. Looking for status, looking for love. Want to be protected, want to dominate. Want to be the fucker or the fuckee as it were. That is not learned behaviour, and it isn't culture specific.

If you need to be the fuckee to make your brain fire off the desired emotional goal state, and you can't go on without that happening at least once in a while without getting really miserable or going crazy, well you probably need to learn/adopt the culture-specific speech acts and dress codes to allow you to navigate society smoothly, but gender itself is still just a product of your biology and not of society.

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#6 [url]

Mar 4 17 2:35 PM

Xora wrote:
Gender is not performed, gender is felt. It's not what you say, it's how you feel. It's emotions, goals, desires. Looking for status, looking for love. Want to be protected, want to dominate. Want to be the fucker or the fuckee as it were. That is not learned behaviour, and it isn't culture specific.

If you need to be the fuckee to make your brain fire off the desired emotional goal state, and you can't go on without that happening at least once in a while without getting really miserable or going crazy, well you probably need to learn/adopt the culture-specific speech acts and dress codes to allow you to navigate society smoothly, but gender itself is still just a product of your biology and not of society.

imageimage  So funny! 

Agreed, Xora.  I don't perform anything either.  I am one and the same regardless of country or culture.  However, my affinity for theater may be an indication that I realize that there is a setting for a fictional exaggeration of myself that can go to some extreme without being taken seriously, because it's not real life.  Do you know what I mean?  If I play a character not as my "usual" recognized self, then I get to "get those other feelings out of my system."  It's both fun and therapeutic.  
 

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#7 [url]

Mar 8 17 12:54 PM

"The drift I get in these forums is that discussion centers around not so much "feminism" as the feminist issue of objectification of women." - Allison, Feminism is an umbrella term for a pretty big subject, and obviously there are a number of flavors of it. Among them, there are some pretty major philosophical differences. Yes, I do think most people focus on some specific social issues embraced under the feminist umbrella, rather than a overall ideology. That happens to be true of most cis women as well as trans women.

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#8 [url]

Mar 19 17 4:06 PM

"Performance" -- Speech Act Theory

A speech act in linguistics and the philosophy of language is an utterance that has performative function in language and communication. ... The contemporary use of the term goes back to J. L. Austin's development of performative utterances and his theory of locutionary, illocutionary, and perlocutionary acts.Speech act - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_act

 

Allison Wunderland's Transcend Dance
http://allisontranscend.blogspot.com/

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#9 [url]

Mar 19 17 4:50 PM

"Performance" -- Speech Act Theory

The dissention swirling around "performance" in these forums seems to stem from the notion that "performance" is not authentic. That is a mis-understanding of the performative speech act theory in linguistics.

A vow, an oath, a promise, a declaration is a speech act. These are performance of a speech act. Wearing a red dress to a funeral (particularly if a cis-M!) makes a statement. The statement is a speech act. "I'm so annoyed I swear I'm gonna shave my head!" -- The statement is the performance of an oath. The shaving is an act of performance -- which in this culture makes a statement.

If I enroll in a class at the university, attend the class -- the enrollment and attendance are performances. Not attending is also a performance. We have other context for "performance" -- Job performance, perform the duties of a parent, perform the prescribed legal requirement of a motorist involved in a traffic accident, perform the legal duties of a police officer.

These are all "authentic" acts -- no pretend, no affectation.

So -- I get up in the morning and put on a skirt. That's one culturally prescribed performance. Skirt wearing is a gender specific performance. Pants wearing is not so gender specific. Standing to pee is a gender performance. Standing to pee is sorta biologically determined. But when I sit to pee that is also a performance. Some might argue that sitting to pee is  "female" -- That's a cultural value. Sitting to pee does not make me cis-F. Sitting to pee is the performance of a gender related sort of act. It's behavior, not speech. But the behavior "says" -- "This is what women do." What the act signifies is cultural. The signification is linguistic. Language is cultural.

"This person wears cammo, drives a truck, owns guns and chainsaws, wears boots, pees off the transom when sturgeon fishing." -- These are the cultural performances of what are culturally viewed as "masculine" acts. But I know a lot of cis-F who fit this performance outline. The acts are culturally defined. The performance of the act has cultural signification, although the signification says "male" the acts are performed by cis-F and so deconstruct gender attribution that these are viewed as "male" performances. Just like skirts are "female" performances.

We draw in a breath. That's the performance of respiration.

It's not in-authentic. It's Speech Act Theory.







 

Allison Wunderland's Transcend Dance
http://allisontranscend.blogspot.com/

Last Edited By: AllisonWunderland Mar 19 17 4:59 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#10 [url]

Mar 19 17 8:27 PM

Anyone that denies essentialism tout court necessarily can't be making sense. They'd then have to account for how things can be compared, and grouped at all. It divorces words from the world, and they need to be able to remarry them.

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#12 [url]

Mar 28 17 12:51 PM

It's interesting that the chromosomes equal gender argument is being used both by radical feminists and fundamentalist Christians. The radical feminists want to see all of gender as being defined by reproductive biology. I therefore totally get it why somebody saying that they are a female in a male body might be upsetting to them. It flies in the face of their core dogma. On the other hand, the fundamentalist Christians like the chromosomes argument because they can see DNA as God writing down an irrefutable plan for one's life. For both of them, the chromosome argument is a wonderful reason to hate trans people

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#13 [url]

Mar 28 17 2:03 PM

And if some people even have the internal reproductive biology, just not the usual entryway? What does that make us?
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/persistent-mullerian-duct-syndrome#
Still not real 'women' I suppose, because we weren't socialised as them and forced to believe in the mystical all-powerful patriarchy. 
Chromosomes are far too simplistic a determinant. 

Talk about moving the goal posts. 
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#14 [url]

Apr 20 17 12:56 AM

TERFs are not and never have been feminists, right from the days of Janice Raymond.(an ex Catholic nun no less).

These are, based on their own public statements the positions of Australian TERFs over and above their hatred of trans women:

Anti Safe Schools, anti-marriage equality, anti-HPV vax (some are total anti-vaxxers), anti-IVF, anti- chemical contraception or abortion (RU-486, morning after pills, contraceptive implants, etc), some like Greer even totally anti the Pill and any abortion. Anti-sex education.

Anti non Male or Female legal gender markers such as an 'X" (intersex people can F.O. as far as they are concerned)...amazing given their endless mantra of 'abolish gender' ...well except don't really, they love the gender binary as much as the Catholic church does. Anti-sex workers.

So how different are they to ‘christian’ right wingers like our Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) ? Not a lot at all.
In fact they work together very closely on many issues, quite openly. and many admit their agree with the 'christian'/conservative right wing far more than the left (who they now claim are to blame for everything that is wrong for women in society).

Classic example:
Mornings with Steve Austin 012 ABC Brisbane. 13 Oct 2015.
Interviewing Wendy Francis from the Australian Christian Lobby who said introducing the second guest
" she is a good friend of mine, a radical feminist, a lesbian” Caroline Norma from RMIT.
Tag teaming each other attacking Safe Schools and the associated organisations like the LGBTI youth support group Minus 18.

Imagine that so called 'radical feminists' attacking abortion and contraception ,,,the HPV vaccination for f**ks sake...for women, gay men, lesbians...and of course trans women.

Germaine Greer is a real piece of work, I have carefully documented her positions...her pro FGM position, her anti abortion position, her anti contraception position, her 'very sexy pre pubescent boys' position.....her hatred of intersex people position...

Feminist ..NOT.

The vast majority of feminists support trans people, the vast majority of trans people are feminists. TERFs on the other hand are not feminists.

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