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Apr 18 17 9:19 AM

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I actually agree with Camille Paglia on many topics but it became clear listening to this video that she has been persuaded on the overblown risks of chemical puberty intervention and tends to down-play the very real risks (i.e. suicide) of not taking trans-kids seriously and then helping them as necessary.

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#1 [url]

Apr 18 17 9:22 AM

Camilla Seriously - go back to discussing Feminism or fucking educate yourself on this because you are messing with people's lives as an important and influential speaker your opinion has weight.

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#2 [url]

Apr 18 17 10:18 AM

Bobbi, she's a FTM lesbian crossdreamer, by the way.  A lot of my thoughts were inspired by hers, except for the lesbian thing.  

With regards to transgender kids, she and Milo Yannopoulos (a conservative bonafide gay man who has advocated for men-boy relationships) might have missed the boat on the interex condition.  Transgender issues are very broad.  There are definitely transgender thoughts as a fashion trend, because you know, who doesn't want to be exceptionally unique these days (my eyes roll).  Then there are liberal-tarded parents who believe they should let their kids think on their own in the spirit of independence, without understanding that the human brain doesn't fully mature until age 25.  (Young men can enter the military at age 18, but this is a remnant of war times when ALL men were needed to quantify the size of an army, not because they were actually mature.  Life is cheap as it is interpreted in many societies to this day, and suicide as military defense has always been accepted under these terms.)    WHERE WAS I.....Oh......right.......

For some children, the intersex condition is very real, and this is not about having two sets of genitals.  Intersex is also a broad umbrella term for conditions where there is a hormonal discrepany at fetal development and also psychological disorders where the brain recognizes a gender not as displayed by the body. These disorders are quite prevelant throughout an intersex person's life regardless of how accepted a society is of transgender rights and behaviors.  (My first transgender best friend is such a person.)  It is as though a person with no legs, feels legs or wants legs.  I believe that these cases are quite legitimate and are the "real" transgender cases, not a fashion trend like the way all gender non-conforming issues are lumped together to the point of ridicule that a FTM lesbian, like Camille Paglia,  and a MTF gay man (most of the time), like Milo Yannopoulos are discrediting.  As much as I like these odd balls, I agree with them on transgender issues now being a fashion trend, while at the same time, I believe that there are a real sample of cases where there are intersex conditions that warrant treatment.  

 

Last Edited By: lal2828 Apr 18 17 7:35 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#3 [url]

Apr 18 17 10:59 AM

Jen, I have had periods in my life with very intense body dysphoria. This would be a persistent feeling that would exist beyond arousal, but it was in the state of arousal were it was always the most disturbing. Although I never had my T tested in those days, I am guessing that these body dysphoric episodes correlated very well with high T levels. It was as if I had this itch, but absolutely the wrong equipment to resolve it. Sometimes it was so upsetting, it made me feel physical sick. Does that fit into your idea of being inter-sex in a mental sense?

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#4 [url]

Apr 18 17 11:03 AM

Jen wrote "Bobbi, she's a FTM lesbian crossdreamer, by the way."

Ya I know - I had a visceral reaction to this video simply because I have experienced too many gate-keepers and one more influential commentator pilling on pushed my buttons. I do not deny that there are some kids who may dive into this thinking it's cool and without thought, however if she focused on dialogue instead of prohibition I would have no problem with this video. There might be a few "liberal-tarded parents" out there, but IMHO there are a lot more who are either frightened and poorly informed or just blinded by their own prejudices to consider the reality that Jenny might be a John - and that this is actually ok.

I am honestly not a big proponent of SRS for teens either - I just do not think that blanket statements like this are helping.

Damn - I can see why she gets slammed by feminists! I was totally on board with her views on that - but this one really touched a nerve.

Last Edited By: Bobbi Dare Apr 18 17 11:06 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#5 [url]

Apr 18 17 11:17 AM

These ideas of trans being a trend, and trans people being a cult out to corrupt the young have become as of late the rallying points of transphobic people. As with both of you, I believe extreme caution in regards to any medical procedures with the young, but many parents are in a moral panic, and are convinced that there is some sort left wing conspiracy involving care givers, LGBT people, and liberals in general.. I read people these people, and I am thinking they must live in an alternative universe. At every step in my journey I have found gate keeping, and trans people who have urged caution.

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#6 [url]

Apr 18 17 1:27 PM

April wrote:
Jen, I have had periods in my life with very intense body dysphoria. This would be a persistent feeling that would exist beyond arousal, but it was in the state of arousal were it was always the most disturbing. Although I never had my T tested in those days, I am guessing that these body dysphoric episodes correlated very well with high T levels. It was as if I had this itch, but absolutely the wrong equipment to resolve it. Sometimes it was so upsetting, it made me feel physical sick. Does that fit into your idea of being inter-sex in a mental sense?



April, I've only begun to learn about transgender theories. Five years ago, the whole LGBT.....no, no, no......make that TP (transgender and pansexual) community meant nothing more to me than a bunch of outlandishly dressed men and women who had a lot of free time on weekends for a parade in New York City. After all, my gender presentation and thoughts are all consistent with those of simple, ordinary straight cis females. But when I met my first online friend who had a mind and body mismatch, I couldn't turn back to not seeing trans issues. My pal is 61 years old, so she's from a time when people thought that a feminine man is just an unfortunate gay man with no prospects of a serious family and respectable fortune. So, the "cure" for all of this nonsense is gay conversion therapy where the quack just tells the patient to "Knock it off and be a man."

Well, the problem is that she can't. One of the symptoms is to be loved like a woman, much like you, April. She did get married and have a son as a husband and a father by the way, so it isn't that she has intersex genitals, but no matter what, her brain didn't recognize her body.

She's now divorced and is taking HRT that has made her a lot better. So, her case convinced me. A 61 year old is not likely to follow a fashion trend.

Then I read up on evolution and Joan Roughgarden......and .....here I
am. I am no expert on intersex conditions, but I know that mind and body mismatches are real.

Last Edited By: lal2828 Apr 18 17 1:34 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#7 [url]

Apr 18 17 3:20 PM

Jen,

Thank you for mentioning Joan Roughgarden. That's the first I've heard of her and see in Wikipedia and Amazon that she is well-published and regarded. I'm also very interested in reading anything and everything that adds to my knowledge of transgender people. Do you have a specific title of hers that you would recommend? Plus any other books that you like would be very helpful.

Thank you,

Emma

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#8 [url]

Apr 18 17 7:52 PM

(Actually, it was Jack who introduced me to Joan Roughgarden first. )

Roughgarden was born Jonathan. She is an evolutionary biologist who reported the life of animals and noted how astounding and prevalent intersex traits are in the animal kingdom. She reveals her findings in her book, Evolution's Rainbow.

Joan Roughgarden is also a devout Christian and found acceptance passages in the Bible for transgender people. She wrote about this in Evolution and Christian Faith.

Roughgarden's work all go back to her trans and intersex conditions.

I've always liked evolution , so that's how I got stuck in the trans world with no hope of turning back.

Last Edited By: lal2828 Apr 19 17 4:44 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#9 [url]

Apr 20 17 3:10 AM

I actually contacted Roughgarden via email. She was very sceptical at first, but concluded that my presentation of her work was a good one. She still sticks to idea that there is a divide between regular trans women and fetishists, though. Anyway, I have learned a lot from her.

As for Paglia: American "Conservatives" (I always add quotation marks when talking about American extremist right wingers, as they have little in common with the European Conservatives I know) have now discovered her attack on trans people and use her in their quest for the oppression of gender variance. There is always a social, political and cultural context to consider, and Paglia should be intelligent enough to know that.

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#10 [url]

Apr 23 17 11:05 AM

Okay, I don't want to thread on anyone's toes here, but I've watched that clip a couple of times now and I'm still not sure where exactly I'm supposed to be outraged. I can follow Bobbi a bit of the way, but really, this talk isn't mainly about bashing transgender people is it?

"As for Paglia: American "Conservatives" (I always add quotation marks when talking about American extremist right wingers, as they have little in common with the European Conservatives I know) have now discovered her attack on trans people and use her in their quest for the oppression of gender variance. There is always a social, political and cultural context to consider, and Paglia should be intelligent enough to know that."

I doubt she cares. Camille Paglia is all punk rock. She doesn't do politicising or self policing. She speaks her mind.


"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 23 17 11:14 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#11 [url]

Apr 24 17 3:13 PM

Monique wrote, "I doubt she cares. Camille Paglia is all punk rock. She doesn't do politicising or self policing. She speaks her mind."

The part of the video that set me off was when Camille equated hormone intervention therapy for Trans-kids to child abuse - because "kids can't think for themselves until they are adults 18+" which is a paraphrase. This pissed me off for a couple of reasons: (1) if you listen to Camille's rants against universities in the 60's that treated girls and boys differently in order to protect the virtue of young women that need "protection". She hated this paternalistic attitude of universities because it assumed that young women were incapable of accepting the consequences of their own actions and needed protecting. (2) My second objection was that she was in essence agreeing with Kenneth Zucker by saying that trans-kids will most likely grow out of it.

The first makes her a hypocrite and the second just fucking pisses me off because she should know how harmful it is to back up someone like Zucker. And before you say it Jen - I know she is not specifically agreeing with him, but some day her words will be folded together with Zucker's by someone making an argument against treatment for Trans-kids. There are enough frightened and poorly informed parents out there - influential speakers like Camille can either make things better or worse depending on how they describe complex issues. The issue of kids seeking hormone intervention is not simple, it is not trendy, it is potentially harmful and it is potentially life-saving. Deciding on this cannot be boiled down to simple platitudes like "this is akin to child-abuse."

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#12 [url]

Apr 24 17 10:47 PM

Bobbi Dare wrote:
Monique wrote, "I doubt she cares. Camille Paglia is all punk rock. She doesn't do politicising or self policing. She speaks her mind."

The part of the video that set me off was when Camille equated hormone intervention therapy for Trans-kids to child abuse - because "kids can't think for themselves until they are adults 18+" which is a paraphrase. This pissed me off for a couple of reasons: (1) if you listen to Camille's rants against universities in the 60's that treated girls and boys differently in order to protect the virtue of young women that need "protection". She hated this paternalistic attitude of universities because it assumed that young women were incapable of accepting the consequences of their own actions and needed protecting. (2) My second objection was that she was in essence agreeing with Kenneth Zucker by saying that trans-kids will most likely grow out of it.

The first makes her a hypocrite and the second just fucking pisses me off because she should know how harmful it is to back up someone like Zucker. And before you say it Jen - I know she is not specifically agreeing with him, but some day her words will be folded together with Zucker's by someone making an argument against treatment for Trans-kids. There are enough frightened and poorly informed parents out there - influential speakers like Camille can either make things better or worse depending on how they describe complex issues. The issue of kids seeking hormone intervention is not simple, it is not trendy, it is potentially harmful and it is potentially life-saving. Deciding on this cannot be boiled down to simple platitudes like "this is akin to child-abuse."
Thanks, Bobbi. Now I see what got to you. Actually, I agree. The brain development and "18+" thing was stupid and even set me off. Didn't you just talk about little kids right now, Camille? An 18-year old guy isn't some little kid. Teenagers aren't children, despite how much the parents of over-protected Millennials would like to imagine it to be so. Secondly, the passage also set an uncompromising tone: "brain development". Who could argue with that? Thing is that the whole trans kids issue needs to be handled with care and on a case to case basis, I think. In fact, if the whole trannie fashion thing, so embraced by the PC ruling classes and their mainstream media, could just blow over that would actually help in attaining a measure of common sense and objectivity.

I wouldn't even rule out that Paglia might reconsider her statements if confronted. She went out on a limb and her machine gun mouth just went ahead and blabbered away. It happens when you've got the kind of personality she has.

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 24 17 11:19 PM. Edited 5 times.

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