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Apr 11 17 9:19 AM

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Before European Christians forced gender roles, Native Americans acknowledged 5 gendershttps://matadornetwork.com/life/european-christians-forced-gender-roles-native-americans-acknowledged-5-genders/

People were valued for how they contributed to the tribe, rather than for their masculinity or femininity. Parents didn’t assign gender roles to children — even children’s clothing was gender neutral.

and a link to a  film
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/videos/the-bravest-choice-is-to-be-yourself/

[url=
 

Last Edited By: micha Apr 11 17 10:44 AM. Edited 3 times

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#2 [url]

Apr 12 17 3:39 AM

This one linked from the first one is good too. https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/news/opinions/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders/



It's why I like this story so much: http://cheeseburgerbrown.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/gitchy-manitous-bang.html

I'm not sure of the authors background exactly, but he's Canadian, and has rather cleverly mixed 'First Nations' traditional mythology with 'Western' scriptural doctrine, showing the problems it causes if you continually force all your gender variant people to try to feign compliance with more 'traditional' life roles.



(Well it depends on how you want to read it, but it's possibly cautionary tale, essentially the Ashkenazi Jewish diaspora bottleneck got themselves in a situation where they were restricted by the 'host' Christians to certain roles/industries for a couple of centuries, finance due to different usury 'laws', jewellery, (my more distant ancestors were originally silversmiths or something), entertainment? and so selective social pressures made those males with the best academic/business minds the best bets for obtaining social status and getting married, and those with the best academic minds, well you know what I think about Einstein->Asperger's->Transgender, so disproportionately lots of really intellectual Nobel Prize winners, and lots of banking clans, and then well a lot of them escaped europe, especially due to the second world war, and moved to the States and gradually took everything over over the course of the last century or so, till the whole USA is kinda a political puppet of Israel.

https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/pellissier20130620



Traditional Native Americans closely associate Two Spirited people with having a high functioning intellect (possibly from a life of self-questioning), keen artistic skills and an exceptional capacity for compassion. Rather than being social dead-enders as within Euro-American culture today, they were allowed to fully participate within traditional tribal social structures.



I reckon the tradition of circumcision is a lot to do with this too, which is surely a massive painful shock to the young child's rather fragile psyche, before they are even old enough to remember it, which probably doesn't do nearly as much good as people claim, but creates a kind of base of trauma which causes them to forever seek a wholeness they can never fully experience in this life, so thanks for that 'God'.

It's a very clever bit of viral meme social engineering if you really want to create a 'people set apart' that is very ingroup-centric and seems to eventually fall out with their 'host' population wherever they choose to settle down. Kinda a self-fulfilling prophecy. https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Unabomber---haunting-heart-/dp/0972253815/



My people have suffered for thousands of years, and I don't give a shit.. you could just choose to stop doing this shit to your kids you know, no one would really mind.. but ah yes, tradition..





(OK, that's not really gonna go down well, bad bad Xora ;-),

Not actually circumcised thankfully, I think my dad was, but I was raised Christian, but still have Ashkenazi Jewish relatives and probably ancestors on my Father's side and my Maternal haplogroup is also actually K1B1A1, so make of that what you will.)

And yeah, obviously the insatiable Western European Imperialist mindset rather is an outgrowth of the ~6 thousand year old, Judeo-Christian culture which has certain things to say about people like us in Leviticus, and no, that's hardly the whole story, coz we've been digging up bones of Neanderthals from ~40,000 years ago, and finding examples of fairly advanced human artwork and things from ~100,000 years ago, so can't we please just forget about that whole Genesis thing now? The world is actually far older and more interesting than that, and the native americans seemingly lived there for thousands of years and managed not to cover the whole place in highways and shopping malls and dust-bowl maize farms.





I do still like the Klezmer music of Sophie Solomon though, that's a real talent..

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#3 [url]

Apr 12 17 5:06 AM

I will see if I can dig up some more on this. Joseph Campbell has noted that a lot of shamanistic societies allows shamans' to cross gender borders, either permanently or from time to time. There is much variation, including various forms of twin-spirited shamans, FTMs and MTFs.

In such societies gender crossing is seen as a sing of wisdom or the ability to see into the 'other' world, the world of spirits, because that world transcends the dichotomies found in this world. There is reason to believe that ALL societies were shamanistic until some six to seven thousand years ago. Whether all allowed for gender crossing is not known, but the pattern is clear.

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#4 [url]

Apr 12 17 5:47 AM

Here's a book that discusses gender variance among Native Americans in more detail:Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North Americaby Will Roscoe  http://amzn.to/2ptzIas

Roscoe uses the word Berdache to refer to those who crossed genders, and that is not a term that is normally used anymore. But I have read the book, and Roscoe treats them with respect.


I found it a fascinating read and I learned a lot from it. 
 

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#5 [url]

Apr 12 17 6:27 AM

Well I still don't understand it all myself, but yeah, I seem to be one of those shamen types, and there kind of is a female world and a male world that look and feel completely different.

The female world is heaven, especially if you like flowers.. but so far I've only been there fairly briefly, I think for me it seems to require a kind of sweet spot of hormones, like maybe high progesterone.

image
It's not just putting on different clothes, it's like an entirely different mental state.
No wonder men and women often have a hard time communicating, if they are not even seeing the same things let alone feeling the same things.



The shamen traverses the Axis Mundi, and brings back priceless treasures from the spirit world to heal the tribe.

https://fractalenlightenment.com/35796/spirituality/axis-mundi-understanding-the-connection-between-heaven-hell

https://fractalenlightenment.com/709/spirituality/bending-time-and-space-with-shamanism

image

image

(So I dunno who those folks are, but somehow I don't think they are 'evil satanists', the idea of satan like that is a false construction..
There is some kind of universal pattern based on a real truth, that transcends all established religions, and you don't need to study a great long chain of 'A begat B begat C' to get you there)

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#6 [url]

Apr 13 17 8:09 PM

Hey Xora, what does it say in Leviticus about us? I've read the entire (Christian) canon through once, but it was a long time ago. Yeah, I guess it's nothing encouraging. I've always had the feeling that god (Jahve/the Demiurge) does not like us very much. And he loves war and hates sex. Just look what he had the Hebrews do to those decadent and refined Canaanites.

And I love sex and hate war. smiley: tongue

Funny that. So if that god gets his way, he will most likely send me to hell for the slithery crime of lust. If there is something to enrage him it's lust. It's basically what the whole of Christianity is about, how to avoid the wickedness of sensual pleasure. The only sin that counts. And I should know, being the progeny of a minister.

Which brings to mind that to me there appears to be two main conceptions about hell in the wider western popular psyche. One of eternal anguish and torment and one of sexy devil babes and lustful orgies forever. So which is it really? If judged from a need of punishment and revenge, it ought to be the first version, but then again, if the only real crime is lust, it stands to reason it should be the second. Of course, you can solve the issue by inventing any number of different hells (Swedenborg did this), but if so it appears that these "hells" would ontologically still be completely different - different not just by degreees, but by their very nature. Even if in some way the label "evil" (at least as defined by the Jahve god), would apply to both.

It's pretty confusing.

8774304303214ae6bc5520e70635589f_r.jpg


Love ya.
Hugs & cuddles,
Monique

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 13 17 8:29 PM. Edited 3 times.

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#7 [url]

Apr 14 17 12:49 PM

Tsk, tsk, tsk......(shakes my head while smiling)

I agree that societies around the globe were shamanistic at one point. Some communities still are. Scandinavian communities no less.

Science hasn't explained everything and it won't because the earth and mysterious nature are always in a state of change. That saying (min svenska van!), patriarchal religions arose out of fear that future generations might NOT be smart enough to uphold all the hard work that was laid before. It was just safer to bet a path already followed. Ministers are usually older, wiser, and more educated than the parisheners, you Lutheran son. Each child takes work to be "proper". As free-spirited as we are, we struggle to modify our students pretty much as the ministers do, don't we?

All this said, my dear gender variants, have you noticed how the most puritanically religious families tend to have gender non-comforming kids. I see it like this: either shamanistic nature is mocking religion with the existence of the gender variant child or a religious family didn't recognize subconscious variations in people, therefore forcing the repressed gender variation to boil over.

Last Edited By: lal2828 Apr 14 17 1:33 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#8 [url]

Apr 14 17 2:05 PM

Dear Jen,

You can always assign functionalistic explanations to social phenomena, especially may I suggest, the reproduction of religion. While such Dürkheimesque theories need not be far from the truth, other explanations or characterizations can still be equally valid. It's a lot about perspective. Trying to maintain keeping my tongue firmly in cheek here. smiley: tongue

This is a great book dealing with shamanism as the universal primordial mode of spirituality and true origin of religion (I agree on that too!). I might venture to add that's because a spirit world/this world dichotomy centers attention on what is essential, namely the afterlife - something contemporary Christianity has forgotten all about apparently, if not implicitely or flat out denying such a thing even exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_the_Neolithic_Mind



"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 14 17 3:17 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#9 [url]

Apr 14 17 3:03 PM

lal2828 wrote:

All this said, my dear gender variants, have you noticed how the most puritanically religious families tend to have gender non-comforming kids. I see it like this: either shamanistic nature is mocking religion with the existence of the gender variant child or a religious family didn't recognize subconscious variations in people, therefore forcing the repressed gender variation to boil over.
Yeah... *grins*. On the other hand, it's not without its benefits as a religious upbringing with a certain measure of traditional sexual repression, I believe can create a particularly fertile soil for the imagination. smiley: devil

PS: But whatever you do, don't call me a Puritan! (Well, I get your meaning. You didn't actually do that.) After all, my background is the kind of Lutheran setting that rather had wished to be Catholic. More or less, that's as far away from Evangelical protestant secterianism, for instance like that of the American "Christian right" variety, that you can possibly get. Neither was it a world that prohibited free thought or banned open discussion. On the contrary. Actual conservatism never is. Only radical environments of various persuasions do that kind of stuff, for instance towards children - locking them up in mental cages.

There was just certain things that were a little taboo. smiley: wink

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 14 17 3:06 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#10 [url]

Apr 15 17 12:42 AM

Monique wrote:
Hey Xora, what does it say in Leviticus about us? I've read the entire (Christian) canon through once, but it was a long time ago. Yeah, I guess it's nothing encouraging. I've always had the feeling that god (Jahve/the Demiurge) does not like us very much. And he loves war and hates sex. Just look what he had the Hebrews do to those decadent and refined Canaanites.

And I love sex and hate war. image



 

Well I guess for us the most specific prohibition is in Deuteronomy
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-5.htm
http://biblehub.com/kjv/deuteronomy/22.htm

But I wonder just how specific they are getting, because surely the priesthood for thousands of years has been dressing up to look more like women when performing their ceremonies, and presumably they aren't all abominations. 
image
So perhaps it only specifically prohibits wearing a bra or a corset under your cassock, or actually trying to pass yourself off as a woman when you aren't one, like wearing a miniskirt and high heels to a club on Friday night, rather than just wearing long flowing robes on a Sunday. 
https://www.gotquestions.org/wilderness-wandering.html
Look, I guess this stuff made a lot more sense when people had to survive by their wits while wandering though the desert, but nowadays we really don't need everyone to be having kids, it's totally fine if 1/10 people are gay and don't have kids, there are still hundreds of millions of straight people, of every religious persuasion, so we're not suddenly gonna die out as a species. 
We're way beyond the creating the printing press now, we have exabytes of data stored in the cloud, most of it is porn or pictures of our cats admittedly, but no one is going to forget to copy out the last copy of the bible in existence, or do anything really stupid like that. 

Last Edited By: Xora Apr 15 17 1:44 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#11 [url]

Apr 15 17 5:11 AM

"A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."


Thank you, Xora. I feel liberated, shackles removed. He cannot be my god for a deity must love you for who you are, not despite what or who you are. And clearly, he does not love me for what I am. I'm just a burden to him; a nuisance.

No big deal.

There are many gods and godesses out there, and I shall find my Master & God and Mistress & Mother to serve, who truly loves and cares for me; whom I can bring joy, worship and pleasure, and for that reason wants to keep me a cherished possession in happy bondage forever.

"But I wonder just how specific they are getting, because surely the priesthood for thousands of years has been dressing up to look more like women when performing their ceremonies, and presumably they aren't all abominations."

Don't forget that most of said priesthood is anything but Jewish. For instance, there is a big Indo-European dimension here, and it's not certain the god of the Jews is the one they actually worship, even when they say they do. Moreover, it's pretty much down to what we mean when we talk about "God", wouldn't you say? Do we mean a specific deity or great spirit or the source of everything that exists, and of which an individual god can only be a part?

Seems to me the identification of a certain bearded, envious and wrathful, desert raider god with the very source of existence, the alpha and the omega, Pleroma itself if you will, was about the biggest trick ever pulled on mankind. These two clearly cannot be the same "being"...

Or rather, Jahve could possibly be a part of the Deus Absconditus, but not the other way around. No way.

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 16 17 3:41 AM. Edited 6 times.

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#12 [url]

Apr 15 17 5:31 AM

Wait, wait, wait.......you two MTFs!!!!

Check the part of the Bible where Jesus said eunuchs are welcomed to the Kingdom of Heaven.  At least two people have pointed this out to me.  The MTF evolutionary psychologist, Joan Roughgarden, was also a devout Christian who wrote a book about things she found that Chrisitanity liked in gender variations.  (I can find the book in my local library system.......because no one borrows it image)  
https://brooklyn.bibliocommons.com/item/show/11294897062_evolution_and_christian_faith

My point is that, at least eunuchs were recognized by the  Judeo-Christian religion.  Therefore, gender variations and body modification were taken into consideration because it had always existed.  

The quote about the Judeo-Christian Almighty not liking crossdressing was just that: crossdressing! 

Last Edited By: lal2828 Apr 15 17 6:32 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#13 [url]

Apr 15 17 6:06 AM

lal2828 wrote:
Wait, wait, wait.......you two MTFs!!!!

Check the part of the Bible where Jesus said eunuchs are welcomed to the Kingdom of Heaven.  At least two people have pointed this out to me.  

 
Eunuchs? Your point being?

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

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#14 [url]

Apr 15 17 6:15 AM

I edited the above.  Look.

One of the charges that put Joan of Arc to death was crossdressing (besides witchcraft and thinking like an early Protestant); it was not being a masculine female.  

I'm not saying that crossdressing is bad!!!!  I know crossdressing is a big part of being a gender non-conformist!!!  I'm just pointing out that the internal part of being a transgender was NOT the issue; it was doing the wrong dress code that was the issue.  And I personally don't even have a problem with that.  Women only started to wear pants in the 1960s and no female got condemned for that!

Last Edited By: lal2828 Apr 15 17 6:35 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#15 [url]

Apr 15 17 7:01 AM

lal2828 wrote:
I edited the above.  Look.

One of the charges that put Joan of Arc to death was crossdressing (besides witchcraft and thinking like an early Protestant); it was not being a masculine female.  

I'm not saying that crossdressing is bad!!!!  I know crossdressing is a big part of being a gender non-conformist!!!  I'm just pointing out that the internal part of being a transgender was NOT the issue; it was doing the wrong dress code that was the issue.  And I personally don't even have a problem with that.  Women only started to wear pants in the 1960s and no female got condemned for that!

Hey you! I noticed the quote explicitily only referred to crossdressing, not crossdreaming, transsexualism or anything else. So for anyone into that Tertullian sort of thing, it would offer a straw of juridical argumentation that for instance a born in the wrong body transsexual could still be admitted to heaven. Personally though, I think such a statement needs to to be interpreted in the general spirit of the message, and then it's more like, "we don't want any damn fags running around here!". But that's just me.

Around here, women started wearing pants more generally a few years after the war. My mom has said she noted the trend arriving around 1948. Throughout her life, she always prefered skirt and stockings though. smiley: smile

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 16 17 3:38 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#16 [url]

Apr 22 17 9:27 AM

One of the fundamentalist Christian issues with trans people centers on an idea that trans people are putting themselves in the position of being co-creators with God by transitioning. "God made man and woman", end of story. Any attempt to mess with God's original plan here isn't just a sin, it's a sin on the same level as Satan's rebellion. Therefore it is seen as even worse than homosexuality. I am not a Christian (at least not an orthodox one), but I have relatives who are very fundamentalist, and they quote bible verses as impenetrable mantras. Having one available here, that at the very least, suggests things a little more complicated than their black and white world view, causes them to at least pause and contemplate for a second. I found Matthew 19:12 years ago, and immediately recognized it's potential significance. At the very least, it suggests that even Jesus's much simpler time gender wasn't completely binary.


"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

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#17 [url]

April wrote:
One of the fundamentalist Christian issues with trans people centers on an idea that trans people are putting themselves in the position of being co-creators with God by transitioning. "God made man and woman", end of story. Any attempt to mess with God's original plan here isn't just a sin, it's a sin on the same level as Satan's rebellion. Therefore it is seen as even worse than homosexuality. I am not a Christian (at least not an orthodox one), but I have relatives who are very fundamentalist, and they quote bible verses as impenetrable mantras.



*Sigh* Yeah, what to say? Only in America... smiley: ohwell

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

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#18 [url]

April wrote:
Having one available here, that at the very least, suggests things a little more complicated than their black and white world view, causes them to at least pause and contemplate for a second. I found Matthew 19:12 years ago, and immediately recognized it's potential significance. At the very least, it suggests that even Jesus's much simpler time gender wasn't completely binary.


"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Interesting. Jesus was a cool dude who smoked a lot of grass. He said lots of things. So what's your take on this passage from Matthew?

My initial thought goes to the male priesthood of the mother goddess Cybele (a variation from Phrygia on the Great Mother theme), the so called Galli, who sometimes practiced the rite of self castration, even when against Roman law.

Though of course, I don't want to be a eunuch. I want to be a woman. smiley: glasses


"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

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#19 [url]

Monique, I am not sure what Jesus was specifically getting at here, but he does seem to be suggesting something about the sexes that is a little bit more complicated than the standard binary narrative that so many evangelical Christians infer from scripture. I have raised this verse a number of times whenever Christians wave the "God created man and woman" verse in my face. Some have tried to suggest that this verse is really about celibacy rather than physical alteration, which seems to be a rather strange interpretation to me since the word "eunuch" is clearly used, and everybody in Jesus's time understood perfectly well what that meant. I am particularly fascinated by the part where he say, "which were so born from their mother's womb", which seems to me to suggest that Jesus understood that there were inter sex people. Since I suspect people didn't go around talking about that much in his day, the fact that he thought it even important to mention it, I find very interesting.

Last Edited By: April . Edited 1 time.

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#20 [url]

I'm sure you are on to something here. After all, Jesus was the son of God, the power of source flowed through him (I would say, not the son of "that" god, but the real God (if such a thing could be said to exist)). Even in my wild hypothesis there is a connection. Cybele/Isis/Ishtar/Astarte/Rhea/Venus/Hekate/Ostara etc, were all mother/fertility/sex goddesses; manifestations of a certain divine quality and emanations in turn from God. It seems logical to me that those who worship Her, even if some of them would happen to make themselves eunuchs, would like to be her daughters. Consequently, Magna Mater would also be the obvious deity for men who would prefer to be women.

American evangelical Christians naturally have no clue. They have lost the ability of mythical thinking and so they fall flatly on the concrete verbality of scripture. These heretics do not even consider Catholics - the original Christians in the western world - their fellow Christians, but somehow the spawn of the devil. smiley: smile

And then I personally think even Catholics got a lot of this shit quite wrong early on.

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique . Edited 1 time.

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