#41 [url]

Apr 12 17 3:48 PM

I found this article by Miranda Yardley, http://mirandayardley.com/how-modern-or-third-wave-feminism-benefits-men/

"Rather than being a movement to campaign for the equality of women with men, the end result is a women’s movement that reinforces the oppression of women. With women oppressing women."

Ok - there was some hyperbole in this article IMHO but I generally agreed with the conclusion (quoted). rubbercripple - Was she trying to challenge Blanchard in the interview?

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#42 [url]

Apr 12 17 3:48 PM

I believe using the word "dying" is giving it more of a life than it ever had. It was never widely accepted in the therapist or academic communities. I never even heard of it before Anne Lawrence became a Blanchard follower, and I thought that I had read everything I could on transgender issues up to that point.

Last Edited By: April Apr 13 17 10:28 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#43 [url]

Apr 12 17 4:00 PM

I'm going to say something possibly controversial here... I think we spend too much time in this group worrying and getting upset about what Blanchard says.... If he says, something rubbish or someone who gets their theory from him does - then... correct them, points out their flaws,,, If they continue to spout, them use satire, ridicule their opinions...

But don't get upset, its not worth it.

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#44 [url]

Apr 12 17 4:03 PM

Rubbercripple, Do even grasp that we are talking about a UNIVERSAL theoretical model of transexualism here? One that goes against most of the scienftic and caregiver communities. One that also invalidates the very basis of our identities. I believe I (as well as several others here) have tried to make that very clear to you on several occassions Yet you alway ignore or even dismiss all of that.

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#46 [url]

Apr 12 17 9:55 PM

This is exactly what I would like to include in the film! Everybody here has their opinion about AGP and that's all I originally posted about, wanting how speak to somebody from the UK. I happen to think that it is a valid explanation as to why transwomen are the way they are etc but the film isn't about what I think.

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#47 [url]

Apr 13 17 6:43 AM

My face-palm is to express my frustration at finding yet another transgender thinker falling for the reductionist argument that our experience can be adequately expressed by AGP. The only reason that I could see myself being involved with the discussion in your film is to point out to the community at large how unhealthy it is to even try to define yourself in terms of AGP. Thinking of yourself and your dreams and preferences in terms of this two-dimensional explanation is not going to help anyone understand their real motivations and desires. I do not think that Anne Lawrence was trying to invalidate anyone's personal gender experience, I think was genuinely trying to help people, but she - like many academics - projected her own feelings and prejudices onto the community at large and made assumptions that should not have been applied to all. AGP may describe the experience of some people - it does not describe mine.
If you intend to point this out in your film and make it clear how large the transgender spectrum really is then I might be willing to speak. I am not in the UK though so Skype.

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#48 [url]

Apr 13 17 11:15 AM

Bobbi: thank you for the last post. It would be great to have your input! You can say exactly what you feel, the points you outlined in the last post, please feel free to give your views on the community and how irrelevant you feel the subject is. I can assure you I would not edit anything you say, even if at the last minute you wanted it removed this would be fine too. Would you like to continue via PM or is here fine? Thank you.

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#49 [url]

Apr 13 17 11:17 AM

Bobbi, I completely agree with your assessment of Dr. Lawrence. I had been following her website for several years at the time she embraced Blanchard. Her website in the 90s was the best resource available for those interested in transitioning. I am actually saddened that her many contributions to the trans community have gotten tarred by all the controversies.

And I actually sort of get how she was seduced into carrying Blachard’s water. Back then, the Benjamin Standards dominated all of gender theory. Those standards did not integrate sexuality with gender. You didn’t even hear sexuality in the discussion. Sex was supposed to be something that a transsexual only discovered several years after being post-op. If you were thinking about sex at all, you weren’t a transsexual.

But since trans people are human beings too, and human beings do think about sex once in a while, this left a lot of dysphoric people wondering how they fit in. I suspect more than a few also lied to their therapists to pass through the gate keeping. I suspect that Dr. Lawrence was exactly in that boat. She reads Blanchard who puts sex back into the word transsexual, and she had a eureka moment. There was something there she could relate to, which is perfectly cool. But then she makes the mistake that many have made in the trans community: projecting her feelings and experiences onto to the rest of community as universal standards. I don’t think she fully understood the implications of that when she initially jumped on Blanchard’s bandwagon. She went from no sex in the trans world to everything being about sex. Neither of those extremes fit the experiences of many trans.

Last Edited By: April Apr 13 17 11:25 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#50 [url]

Apr 13 17 11:55 AM

The problem I see with Blanchard's theory is that it only allows for 2 types of mtf transsexuals. And the two choices are both things that most transsexuals can't fathom themselves as. You're either a effeminate male homosexual or a male heterosexual pervert. There is no room for the possibility of someone truly being born with a gender the opposite of their sex, they're all just confused men.

Also, his theory is also a strictly binary. You're either one or the other. You can't be somewhere in-between. And we all know that things are seldom binary. Even something like your sex isn't completely binary, a few people are born inter-sexed. It's a travesty that someone is bolstering this discredited theory by making a film supporting it. All they are doing is prolonging it's demise and adding ammunition for the people fighting against transsexual/transgendered rights.

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

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#52 [url]

Apr 13 17 12:40 PM

It seems to me that, with her last sentence, Lindsay already answered your question.

All they are doing is prolonging it's demise and adding ammunition for the people fighting against transsexual/transgendered rights.

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#55 [url]

Apr 13 17 2:32 PM

A lot of people have worked long and hard to prove that autogynophilia is bad science. We don't need to support someone who is trying to reverse things. You would have much better success here if you were working to discredit it.

Let me ask you some questions, rubbercripple, are you autogynephilic? What about agp rings true to you (please be specific)? Why? How would you feel about people telling you you're something you're not? 
 

Lindsay


"The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear, dig?" the Pointed Man

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#56 [url]

Apr 13 17 2:41 PM

Rubbercripple, I have asked similar questions of you, as Lindsay just did, without any response from you..You don't directly engage us on the key points; you never have, You just dismiss everything we say as if we have never said it, and repeat your original unsupported assertions. It's your turn to lay it out.

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#57 [url]

Apr 13 17 2:47 PM

rubbercripple wrote:
I'm not fighting against anybody. I don't see how making a film is a travesty that's all, beats me.


The AGP etiology of gender dysphoria hypothesis has been and continues to be used to deny people access to the drugs and surgeries that they need to transition.

For instance, it is used by transphobes to say that transwomen aren't really women mentally but suffer from the effect of a mental illness; and therefore they aren't competent to make rational decisions (and in their opinion the only rational decision is to accept and embrace One's assigned gender) .

Further, AGP theory is pseudoscientific (not only does it use cherry picking of data, but since anyone who doesn't fit the two types is assumed to be lying it is unfalsifiable- two big characteristics of pseudoscience) and probably many of the members here fear that making a film on it in which it treats it as if it seriously will only give its supporters undue legitimacy.

It would be like a film that treats intelligent design and evolution as if they were equally legitimate instead of ID being pure scientific nonsense. Or a film treating flat earth hypothesis the same as the world is a globe theory.

I believe they feel (and I agree) that promoting such a theory, is a tragedy because It has hurt so many and the film might convince many laymen that it is true.

That said, if done right, like an expose showcasing all the problems with AGP hypothesis, a film could do the opposite. But based on the many conversations that we have had with you, you have left us feeling as if that is a very unlikely outcome.

Last Edited By: Lost247365 Apr 13 17 2:55 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#58 [url]

Apr 13 17 3:01 PM

If all of you were able to contribute to the film it would be great! Sadly this is highly unlikely. I'm hoping Bobbi can do the Skype session otherwise it will seem somewhat unbalanced. Ask me anything I have nothing to hide.

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#59 [url]

Apr 13 17 3:17 PM

Lindsay: No I am not Autogynephilic. If people told me I was something or someone I was not, it would not bother me in the slightest, it is extremely difficult to offend me :) It doesn't matter what I think is true about AGP.

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