#61 [url]

Jan 24 17 11:58 PM

Well here's another article with a more 'negative' take on the issue:
https://www.mercatornet.com/mobile/conjugality_view/19232

Well basically he's going even further and saying that since 'autism' is so commonly associated with childhood gender variance, and since most people at least appear to 'desist' from childhood gender variance by their late teens, the girl on the recent front cover of National Geographic ought to have been forced to have remained living as a boy and should have just been diagnosed with 'autism' instead, a condition that there is actually other non-surgical/hormonal treatment for (except there isn't, right, it's all just behavioural therapy, which is why it's still classed as a lifelong pervasive developmental disorder.)

A former associate of Dr Zucker at CAMH recently expressed her indignation that some autistic children are being dragooned into the transgender world. Child psychiatrist Susan Bradley is not opposed to sex changes, but she is alarmed that some ASD children are taking irreversible steps without really understanding the consequences. She wrote in the Canadian newspaper National Post that  
Activists would have the public believe that anyone who expresses a wish to be the other gender should be allowed and encouraged to do so. Credulous politicians have translated their demands into law. To date, however, there is no evidence that there is such a thing as a “true” trans, just as there is no marker that would identify a “false” trans. To accept the thinking and wishes of those with ASD at face value, without understanding why they feel the way they do, is not a kindness, and may in fact be extremely damaging.

Avery Jackson, the nine-year-old transgender girl on the cover of December issue of National Geographic, has been living as a girl since he was five. How can a toddler decide that he is the wrong sex? Rather than celebrating his “choice” as brave, proud, and beautiful, perhaps his parents should have had him assessed for autism.


You'd rather have your child considered 'lifelong disordered' than just let them be themselves?

Just how backwards can you get it? We are both physically/neurologically gender variant. We don't really 'desist' we just adapt, it's still always a mental struggle, and we still keep getting depressed every few years, and if these people had any idea of the numbers still visiting FictionMania.tv etc. they'd soon realise that while we might just about learn to just about convince other people, we never learn to convince our own minds and bodies to actually be gender congruent, not even well into our 50s and 60s, if we can last that long.

Last Edited By: Xora Jan 30 17 4:48 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#62 [url]

Jan 29 17 6:13 AM

Another one from the 'science of autism' perspective. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-risk-may-arise-from-sex-specific-traits/?wt.mc=SA_Twitter-Share

They've found that the genetic profile of 'autism' corresponds to those with copy-number-variants in the genes that control sexually-dimorphic physical traits and neurological subsystems. 

So that's still autism = gender variance, right? Score one for the 'they think they are trans because they neurologically actually are' side vs. the 'they think they are trans because that's just a side effect of the social difficulties they experience caused by their "autism" '

But what causes the these copy-number-variants to arise in the first place?

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#63 [url]

Jan 30 17 12:56 AM

 the girl on the recent front cover of National Geographic ought to have been forced to have remained living as a boy and should have just been diagnosed with 'autism' instead,


This is the problem of reductionistic social biology. They have this need to reduce the cause of a phenomenon to one and only one factor. The body and mind is one huge complex system where several factors interact to produce a certain pheonomenon. 

What the statistical correlation between autism and transgender conditions might imply is simply that they have something in common.


 

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#64 [url]

Jan 31 17 3:40 PM

Do you still not get it? At least for some of us, all that happened was we popped out of the womb with a pretty ordinary fully functioning brain, neurologically pre-configured to work like one sex, and a lower body that superficially resembled the other sex...

Then our parents jumped for joy, said 'it's a boy', and so set about trying to convince us through coercion, physical force and emotional blackmail to conform to their expectations of how a 'good boy' should behave and not behave both in public and in private, in order that we not be a potential embarrassment to them, to their friends and parents and older relatives and so on.

They all just piled it on, till we just stopped believing in ourselves, and came out of our teens terribly confused, anxiety prone and socially dysfunctional, never fully grew up through having the 'wrong' kind of puberty, with the wrong hormones in our bloodstream, and so have to be considered rather a 'burden' for life instead of just having boyfriends in our teens and eventually getting married in our twenties, as girls have done for millennia. 
 
That's basically it, that's basically the cause of hours and hours spent in therapies, or being sent to special schools, and millions poured into all kinds of complicated research programs with gene sequencers and magnetic resonance imaging scanners, and people desperately raising money for all kinds of charities, and lots of people like me eventually living out their lives in relative poverty and isolation, or even being placed into residential homes, all because of some rules written in a book thousands of years ago that say that you can't possibly just allow your children to behave too much like they are the opposite sex from what you think they ought to be.. and if they claim to be the opposite sex they must just be confused.

Just don't let your son play with dolls or put on dresses, and don't let your daughter have short hair, play rough and tumble sports and hang out with the boys, you don't want them to turn out gay, or worse..

Maybe it didn't matter so much when it was just 1:50,000 births in the 1950s, or even when I was born in the early 1980s, after the introduction of the pill, when it jumped to 1:2500, but by 2010 it was up to 1:110, and now its what 1:65 births? That's a hell of a lot of people to be labelled 'disabled' if a lot of them aren't actually disabled, just very queer isn't it?
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/111102/full/479022a/box/1.html

All this over letting a few people eventually use the 'wrong' public bathroom for their anatomy?
Yeah sure, but it's the principle that counts...

My GP told me it's really more like 1:5 that are practicing homosexuals, not the 1:10 that we used to be told about, so is it really so bad if maybe eventually up to 1:50 people really want to transition genders and would actually be much better off that way?

Does God really care that much any more?
We've come a long way on our own these last few centuries, we can now build spaceships and iPhones and nuclear power plants and ICBMs and so forth, does it really matter too much if we finally admit, after decades of trying, that we still can't figure out how to fully teach someone with the brain of a girl to actually act, move, think and feel like a boy for the rest of their life, and vice versa?
What's so wrong with just being like a Kim Petras or an Andreja Pejic?

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#65 [url]

Jan 31 17 11:59 PM

Oh I do agree with you in this, Xora.

It seems to me that both religious fundamentalists and scientific fundamentalists have this in common: They believe that the world strives towards perfection, somehow. The religious ones believe  God is perfect and therefore cannot create something messy. Imperfections are considered sin or a "fall".

The social biologists believes evolution strives towards perfection ("evolutionary fitness") and will therefore classify anything that does not fit their own ideas about what this perfection should be as an illness or mistake.

People in general are so afraid of being shut out of the good company of others that they are willing to do almost anything to force their kids to adapt, exaclty as you say. And in this way we create our own hell.

To me it seems the world is messy. Evolution does not strive for perfection, it strives (if we can use such a word) for diversity. And God does not strive for perfection either. She is having too much fun creating new crazy stuff in her endless process of self-discovery.

People like us makes perfect sense within this framework. 

I am, like you,  a woman forced to live the life of a man.

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#67 [url]

Feb 4 17 6:31 AM

Only things we notice.

Your mind is software. Program it.

Your body is a shell. Change it.
Death is a disease. Cure it.
Extinction is approaching. Fight it!

© "Eclipse Phase" by Posthuman Studios

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#68 [url]

Feb 4 17 8:44 AM

Hmm, well that's not exactly it. 

You see, it's also the people turning up at the GICs because they think they are trans who now get assessed and told they must have autism, even if they didn't think they did or weren't previously diagnosed, and since that's obviously the 'real' underlying cause of their issues, they should seek help elsewhere first.

The people like Daryl Hannah and Tara Palmer Tompkinson, women who do think they have autism but don't think they are trans, somehow also just happen to have very masculinised facial features, much closer set eyes and longer narrower noses than most NT/cis women, but surely that's just a strange coincidence that it so often seems to work out that way.

And sure, they are doing alright for themselves just passing their problems off on their 'autism', but even in their 50s they haven't managed to sort their social difficulties out and still get really anxious around other people. 

Last Edited By: Xora Feb 4 17 8:49 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#70 [url]

Feb 5 17 9:57 AM

Yes, I get that, I did the Aspie quiz thingy years ago, and it gives you a spider plot thing of your various psychological traits, and the plot I got was much like this:
image
Basically everything about me came out on the Aspie side and virtually nothing at all on the neurotypical side. In fact my plot was probably even further over the line that that one was. 
But after a few more years of figuring stuff out I came to the conclusion that all he is really measuring with that questionaire is actually the psychological consequences of neurological sexual dimorphism, aka gender. I may not go through life looking like a girl, but I do think like one and feel like one. 

If I have all of those traits, I'm just very very feminine, but he's just codified it from a different perspective because transphobia I guess. The autism spectrum is the gender spectrum, that is what they are actually measuring. Extreme males come out on the left of the graph, extreme females come out on the right of the graph, and most people end up with a plot containing a slightly different mixture of bits of both sides. 

Last Edited By: Xora Apr 7 17 5:45 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#71 [url]

Feb 5 17 1:18 PM

Xora wrote:
Yes, I get that, I did the Aspie quiz thingy years ago, and it gives you a spider plot thing of your various psychological traits, and the plot I got was much like this:
imageBasically everything about me came out on the Aspie side and virtually nothing at all on the neurotypical side. In fact my plot was probably even further over the line that that one was. 
But after a few more years of figuring stuff out I came to the conclusion that all he is really measuring with that questionaire is actually the psychological consequences of neurological sexual dimorphism, aka gender. 
I may not go through life looking like a girl, but I do think like one and feel like one. 

If I have all of those traits, I'm just very very feminine, but he's just codified it from a different perspective because transphobia I guess. The autism spectrum is the gender spectrum, that is what they are actually measuring. 

Extreme males come out on the left of the graph, extreme females come out on the right of the graph, and most people end up with a plot containing a slightly different mixture of bits of both sides. 


 

Interesting test and an interesting conclusion. I believe that research scientists often get the direction of casuality wrong when studying human behavior. I am not sure if the results of this particular test are mearsuring the consequences of gender identity as much as they are measuring the consequences of gender dyphoria. A lot of the social beharior associated with Aspergers might be rooted in the discomfort of gender dysphoria. I just took the test and the area of my result ended up about 95% on the left (neurotypical) side of the chart. I recall taking this test just shortly before transitioning and ended up with a somewhat different result. While I was never as neurodiverse as you, my chart was much more balanced between the left and right sides than it is now. The shift fits very well with my own personal experience over the last 4 years.I believe much of my previous social discomfort was rooted in my own gender repression.

image 

 

Last Edited By: April Feb 5 17 8:06 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#72 [url]

Feb 5 17 4:14 PM

Well maybe it's not so clear cut as that, but it's something along those lines. 

It does seem like what the medical profession thinks of as 'gender dysphoria' seems to be centred around a minor/personal dissatisfaction with your external physical appearance or life role, whereas what I think of as 'gender dysphoria' is more a biochemical imbalance where the body and mind can't reach congruence and homeostasis. 

The underlying biochemistry defect then causes the more visible personality abberations, not the other way around.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/personality-disorders/symptoms-causes/dxc-20247656
The body-mind/subconscious actually basically knows what it is trying to achieve, and the conscious mind is left rather helpless trying to figure this stuff out through trial and error and logical deduction.
You know, the whole philosophers stone/alchemy thingy, or somehow thinking that keeping lots of bottles of your own piss for some obscure reason is a really good idea.. (Not that I've ever gone that far off the rails, cough cough..)

So what the psychiatric profession sees as 'Cluster B' fixed personality traits which they then pin on genetic and environmental causes, are more like transient mental states which can actually be resolved relatively simply by fixing the biochemistry, before people get as far as going on mass shooting sprees, and need never really have come about in the first place, apart from the amount of stress and social conformity people are placed under nowadays.

Well I kind of have this theory that as civilisations form and grow in complexity, the way human biology works is such that due to multiple births, increasing parental age, seventh son of seventh son etc., eventually you end up accidentally creating a bunch of people like us, who are then the 'witches' or 'shamens' or the ones who start going a bit crazy because they basically can't physically get laid, and then they start studying numerology or claiming to be in touch with the 'gods' and so take charge and demand that the others build pyramids and make human sacrifices and so forth, until the whole civilisation basically collapses like the aztecs and so on did. 
https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/leary_timothy/leary_timothy_8-circuit.shtml

It's just taken us this many iterations of the system to finally have both the necessary vocabulary and the scientific tools to figure out what's really going on biologically, and that we don't actually need to drink the blood of a virgin or newborn infant and do a specific ritual dance in order to stabilise our mental states, we can just use the right plants or even mass-manufactured bioidentical hormones and so on, and then be right as rain and more or less neurotypical again. 

Well that's me anyway, as so far as I can tell there isn't actually a 'god' out there, it's just a useful construct for understanding human subconscious dynamics and is somewhat necessary, in one form or another, for maintaining the stability of a large human population, especially as the environmental complexity increases and the number of queers continually rises, which is why we seem to keep recreating essentially the same patterns over and over in supposedly isolated populations around the world.

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#73 [url]

Apr 6 17 11:51 PM

Another link, they've done a meta-study of MRI brain scans and discovered that there isn't nearly as much difference in average male/female amygdala volumes as had previously been proposed.  https://scienmag.com/mounting-challenge-to-brain-sex-differences/

Conclusion: Human brains are just not actually very sexually dimorphic after all?
image
Or maybe average human brains are not very sexually dimorphic, as would be expected by looking at the digit ratio bell curve, which shows two peaks for males and females, both roughly in the middle of the distribuion, with a large percentage of people on the 'wrong' side of the line. 

That's not the same as saying that outlier brains are not very sexually dimorphic, and that there isnt actually a male and a female end of the scale which are very different from each other. 

So why don't they do a study comparing very low digit ratio brains with very high digit ratio brains, and then they'd see what the sexually dimorphic differences actually are, regardless of whether they classify the owner of the brain as male or female?

It's not just amygdala differences anyway, there are difference in white matter and grey matter volumes all over the neocortex, and probably even more significant differences in things like the cerebellum. 
 

Last Edited By: Xora Apr 7 17 5:46 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#74 [url]

Apr 8 17 3:24 AM

These overlapping bell curves are very similar to the ones found in studies of behavior, abilities, interests and temperaments of men and women. A woman may score 'like a man' on all variables and still be accepted as a woman. Moreover, she may think of herself as 100% cis and straight.

Thes are the overlaps that makes me question much of the research on transgender identities. They clearly show that gender of the individual cannot be reduced to the size of parts of the brain or psychological traits, even if such dichotomies  may make sense on the macro level.

All of this makes it much harder to explain in a simple way what gender identity is. I am still struggling with the concept. Xora, how do you conceptualize gender identity?

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#75 [url]

Apr 8 17 6:26 AM

Well I think it's all a sliding scale, so there isn't really a binary cut off point, but if you have too many cross gender traits/desires you'll probably find yourself both physically and psychologically very uncomfortable trying to live on the wrong side of the line, particularly if you try to live up to the stereotypical opposite of what you actually are inside.

I'm way to the right of the bell curve, probably 98% percentile, but I also have the genetic factors giving me a delayed puberty, followed by a much extended adolescence of high testosterone, much slower social/brain maturation and so lower self-awareness, and maybe wealthy enough parents to support my rather strange aspirations, and so ample time to pack in the masses of data required.
image
So, if I'm about 95% female, I'd probably be far better off as a woman in terms of what I subconsciously want to look like, how I want to be treated by others, and what I really want to be doing, but that remaining 5% is the bit that continually tells me I just can't possibly accept the loss of status implied by being a transsexual woman, and anyway I'm actually supposed to be in charge around here, only for some strange reason, I can't quite figure out how to project that kind of authority when I want to, nor can I get it up and get myself off when I really need to.

So I construct for myself an identity/role that allows me to express most of the 95% I do have, like being a professor, or a computer geek, or mad scientist and I'm not going to go to the opposite extreme and build up loads of muscles and join the army because well I don't actually want the muscles, and I don't want to shoot anyone, and that's way too much effort to expend just to avoid being thought of as queer, and isn't really what I want to be doing with my time as I like actually studying things and putting all my effort into making really intricate things that actually work as advertised, and that beat all the competition.

So my ideal lifetime outcome is I dunno, creating a big business that designs, creates and sells small portable trainable humanoid robots I suppose. Only I seem to be a bit behind schedule on that now.
image
Anyone can just go and get themselves pregnant, but it takes a village or at least a big corporate campus and 10,000+ employees to make something really insanely great.  ;-) I always knew I'd do something really special with my life, and I've taken the time to learn most of the skills required, I now just need to find that special magical someone to recognise all my latent talents and give me a leg up... and even then I still just need to find that oh so elusive Higgs Boson, otherwise known as a sperm cell. 
image
image

But given the recent destigmatisation of transsexualism, and given that I probably could do with having sex about once a year for mental health reasons if nothing else, then I will grudgingly accept that I probably need to transition, and try to actually try to enjoy it, but I still absolutely refuse to accept being bottom of the heap, or something like that. I'm Queen Bitch if you like. 
No, it's not an entirely sane life plan, I grant you, but thems the breaks. 

(If you could have told me when I was 15 that I could probably just get most of what I really wanted, without most of the stress and effort, and without potentially destroying the planet in the process, and with much more physical health and enjoyment in the process, if I just had a nice sugar daddy when I was 22, I might have taken a very different path in life, but you know, you told me God says it's wrong, and not to lose too much social status by being too abnormal..) ;-)
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Last Edited By: Xora Apr 8 17 7:42 AM. Edited 9 times.

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#76 [url]

Apr 8 17 3:09 PM

Xora, Recently I have witnessed an alarming trend on twitter involving highly transphobic parents. They are terrified that a more open and liberal society in regards to trans people is encouraging the young to adopt trans identities. They are quick to use anything they can to invalidate such identities. Many have referenced their children as being on the autistic spectrum as a reason for such invalidation. For some reason, with almost of the examples I have found (and there have been a number) the child is an FtM.

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#78 [url]

Apr 8 17 5:59 PM

I have found about half dozen mothers whose narrative is something like this: I gave birth to a daughter. She is now in her late teens to early twenties. She thinks she is a trans male, but I know she is just on the autism spectrum and confused (they don's always say that this is an official diagnosis). I tend to think its a desperate attempt to invalidate the trans identity.

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#79 [url]

Apr 8 17 7:09 PM

This will probably sound like an irony, but I am cynical of FtM claims.  It's rare to have FtM.  In this day and age where females are encouraged to be however they want, I can see why mothers worry that their daughters are just following a trend.  What girl and woman aren't pursuing male dreams these days, including the MtF experience?
 A "true" FtM is very close to being an intersex person.   

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#80 [url]

Apr 8 17 11:54 PM

I think it's so difficult because the parents experience of the child differs so much from the child's experience of themselves. The parent projects all kinds of expectations onto the child, and doesn't actually get to see how they behave when they are on their own, nor how they think and feel. So when the child turns around in their mid to late teens and actually has the courage to say, 'No, I am the opposite sex, and I've always felt this way', well the parent is going to say, no you aren't, I see no evidence, yes you have social difficulties, and the doctors have told us those difficulties are due to your autism, and we've already spent years/loads of money working on those things with you, so you are not going down this path.

image
https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-being-transgender-1/answer/Jake-Elvada?share=744b5a64&srid=XhcB

Last Edited By: Xora . Edited 1 time.

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