Lead

Mar 3 17 7:16 PM

Tags : :

I just happened to pick up a copy in the VA waiting room. Talk about sex-role stereotype and objectification of women. They're all huge mammaries, wide hips, big blonde hair.

Seriously not a single swimsuit in the pages that I'd have any interest in wearing. Several of them might be entirely out-done with a roll of duct tape.

Same waiting room there was a copy of Shape magazine -- women's fitnesss, as in "Let us engender in you a fixated angtst about your body." We are going to get into the radical feminist post-structuralist critique regarding women's socio-cultural objectification my the male dominated hegemony. 

And in that same vein, there's a drag-queen show tomorrow at the event center. Allison may very well show up as the radical trans-feminist stealth lesbian.

-- Jus' sayin' . . .
Quote    Reply   

#1 [url]

Mar 7 17 4:32 AM

I'm male, I'm fat, I look like fuck. I've been anxious about my looks and negatively objectified my whole life.

This isn't exclusively a female thing. Still, I wouldn't be served by the hypocrasy of anyone saying I'm good looking when I'm not. Well intentioned lies are so easy to see through.

I think everyone deserves to be as beautiful as they want to be!

Not possible in this world perhaps, but so many things aren't...


I want to be a woman. I want huge mammaries, wide hips and big brunette hair. I want to be "objectified". I want men to whistle as I trot by.

Skimpiness in swimsuit fashion maybe isn't my thing, but when it comes down to it, it's just a matter of taste. This, on the other hand, would be my kind of swimsuit:

4dbce7b83c9c491bb6881b04cfef5c26_r.jpg

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

Mar 7 17 12:02 PM

There are a lot nuances here, and I am somewhere in the middle on this whole issue. Very recently, I said in another thread here that I believe that most sexual arousal has its roots in objectifying. I am pretty sure that applies to both straight and gay people. I do believe other things come into play here, such as emotional connections, and of course, economic security, but I am pretty sure that I wouldn’t be here today unless my parents didn’t find each other physically attractive at first glance.

The idea that this is purely a function of misogyny, and that it only applies to females, I find absolutely ridiculous. Males don’t spend hours and hours in the gym weight lifting just for their physical health. The real payoff is in getting closer to the masculine ideal. And men have the same insecurities about their looks as women do. Before I put on a lot of weight, starting in my early 50s, I was a very attractive male. Looking back at pictures of myself from my early 30s to my mid 40s, I can see that now. My wife has told me that I was most attractive man she had ever seen when she first set eyes on me. She has made it clear to me that was a major factor in her getting interesting in me. Yet I never felt I was attractive enough at the time, and was generally pretty shy and insecure.

But being attractive does have its advantages. In addition to creating sexual arousal in others, it also gives you a lot of self esteem. There is pecking order among the members of each sex based on their looks. If you don’t believe me, just look at what happens in dance clubs on Saturday night.

Women and gay men can look at a woman and judge her looks without the investment of sexual arousal. While they might not look at a woman in exactly the same way as a straight man, the prettiest women end up at the top of the pecking order. By the way, the same thing happens among the straight men. The more average men end up deferring to the good looking guys with the jacked bodies. Occasionally there is an extremely confident more average looking man that can break through all that, but he is the exception. But the main difference between men and women in regards to the looks dimension is that women have vastly more tools at their disposal. If a straight man were to do half as many things in regards to his looks as the average woman, he would be regarded as either gay or hopelessly vain. Gay men seem to be exempt from that restriction. But there is more freedom with women in this regard.

Of course, this all gets twisted up when a person is trans, and there are a lot of things that come into play there. In this forum, and elsewhere in the trans universe, I have read of many narratives where somebody says something like: “I would transition if I could be very attractive”. But there is attractive and there is really attractive, and the idea of attractive here among a lot of crossdreamers is somewhere in the area of a 23 year old super model. But you go to a club on Saturday night, and study 100 women, there might 2 or 3 that reach that kind of standard, and dance clubs tend to have better looking people than the general population. Most cis people are just not that way. I believe a few things are happening here.

I suspect a lot of trans people recognize the huge pain and cost of transition, and would only take the path if they could achieve an exceptional outcome. This sort of echoes Blanchard’s comments about what he called “true transsexuals”: that they are effeminate gay men who would rather be girls and have the inherent physical characteristics to pull off a rather convincing transition. In other words, they can be better looking girls than they are as men.

I also believe cross dreaming plays a hand in all this. When you spend your spare time imagining yourself as drop dead gorgeous, anything rooted in reality would have to be a major disappointment. As one ages, the gap grows between the dream and the likely result of reality. I actually believe that this leads to a lot of desperation for crossdreamers who become increasingly dysphoric in middle age. Yet the inertia becomes insurmountable. At 55, it is difficult for many to see the woman in the mirror, let alone a 23 year old super model.

But despite all that, many are driven out of desperation to transition rather late in life. They run right smack into all those physical realities. They also run into bunch of trans political correctness about how a late life transitioner should be, and none of that is supposed to look anything like a super model. The two visions of transition couldn’t be any more opposite. The late life transitioner gets caught up in all of that, and the resulting angst is absolutely huge.

3 years into transition, I have a pretty good idea where I rank in terms of looks. My social media tells me a lot. I know who is following me on my twitter account, and I have looked at what other trans they follow. I am no super model by any means, and you won’t ever be seeing me in a bikini. I also don’t believe that I will ever completely pass. There will always be some physical cues that will give me away for those who tune into certain things.

But it is possible to be attractive and even sexy, without totally passing. And is also possible to be those things without being in the rarified air of being drop dead gorgeous. With that all said, for somebody who never wore a dress until she was almost 60, and has had no major plastic surgery I think I have done rather amazing. I compare myself to most cis women my age, and even 20 years younger, and rather favorably so. That is more than good enough for me. And yes, it feels absolutely amazing to feel like you are attractive. Without me willing to take the risks, and do the work needed, I would have never gotten to this point. You also can’t listen to others telling you how you should look. This has to all be driven by your internal vision of yourself, and finding out what you absolutely need to be happy.

image

Last Edited By: April Mar 7 17 12:06 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

Mar 14 17 6:29 PM

Time was when I aspired to "pass" --

And then it dawned on me that my efforts at "passing" were costume, a disguise.
Somewhere along the line, during efforts to figure out how to "pass" I began to realize that gender cues are part of a socio-cultural communication function, semiotics.

I began to realize that the reason I wasn't able to entirely "pass" was because my presentation wasn't integrated with my identity. Instead of stereo-typing how women appear, I began to take notice how cis-F actually manage the whole presentation thing. I'm pushing 70 yrs old, a bit overweight, and fortunately for me nothing in my appearance screams "CIS-M" . . .  For the record, I like flannel Lanz of Ausria, wallpaper pattern floral print nighties, founces, lace, ruffles. This sort of stuff works to sleep in, but I cannot make the "earth mama, flower power bohemian" look work for me.

What I am able to wear locally is what most cis-F wear locally -- "Beach Casual" with a lot of rural/agricultural tossed in. I don't dress like a cis-M for the most part. I don't try to "pass" as female. I'm evolving into a radical trans feminist -- presenting as me, cis-M, trans-whatever. Gender-wise I'm in the middle. Cis-sexual, trans-gendered.

Not male gender, not female gender -- trans gendered. Not a disguise, integrated me.

Last Edited By: AllisonWunderland Mar 14 17 6:33 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

Mar 15 17 4:53 AM

Monique wrote:
I'm male, I'm fat, I look like fuck. I've been anxious about my looks and negatively objectified my whole life.

This isn't exclusively a female thing. Still, I wouldn't be served by the hypocrasy of anyone saying I'm good looking when I'm not. Well intentioned lies are so easy to see through.

I think everyone deserves to be as beautiful as they want to be!

Not possible in this world perhaps, but so many things aren't...


I want to be a woman. I want huge mammaries, wide hips and big brunette hair. I want to be "objectified". I want men to whistle as I trot by.

Skimpiness in swimsuit fashion maybe isn't my thing, but when it comes down to it, it's just a matter of taste. This, on the other hand, would be my kind of swimsuit:





 

I'm female, I'm fit, I look good for my age.  I've never been too concerned about how I look or the impact it might have on my life.

Woman: am that.   Mammaries: got.   Wide hips and big brunette hair: check, check.  "Objectified": will always be.   Men whistle as I trot by: yes, yes.   

So why do I think about the meaning of life? Why do I want to campaign to get the dwarf planet Pluto back into our solar system?  Ahhhhh....something is wrong!!!

This thread was about a swimsuit magazine.  Women on magazine covers sell.  That much I know.  I only look at magazines with men on the cover.  There are things I do not understand.  Body image is a part of human culture.  In the last 100 years, the ideal feminine body has become robotic.  I keep thinking this: if women have to look like women, then what is a woman (the reality or the fantasy)?  What kind of person is really on the cover of that swimsuit magazine: no person, it's just art (remember, the photos are edited too).  

I go back to evolutionary biology on this, Monique.  Competition.  You'd feel competitive with men and I'd feel competitive with women.  Don't you think that some people, crossdreamers, are the creatures with the stronger evolutionary mechanism to go into the other gender as a way to stand out, rather than blend in?  The unicorns are going to get the attention (sometimes ostracized and hunted down, but they will get the attention).  Isn't this what it's about?  There is an evolutionary purpose to being a gender trickster. 

Last Edited By: lal2828 Mar 15 17 8:10 AM. Edited 4 times.

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

Mar 19 17 6:28 PM

lal2828 wrote:
Monique wrote:
I'm male, I'm fat, I look like fuck. I've been anxious about my looks and negatively objectified my whole life.

This isn't exclusively a female thing. Still, I wouldn't be served by the hypocrasy of anyone saying I'm good looking when I'm not. Well intentioned lies are so easy to see through.

I think everyone deserves to be as beautiful as they want to be!

Not possible in this world perhaps, but so many things aren't...


I want to be a woman. I want huge mammaries, wide hips and big brunette hair. I want to be "objectified". I want men to whistle as I trot by.

Skimpiness in swimsuit fashion maybe isn't my thing, but when it comes down to it, it's just a matter of taste. This, on the other hand, would be my kind of swimsuit:





 

I'm female, I'm fit, I look good for my age.  I've never been too concerned about how I look or the impact it might have on my life.

Woman: am that.   Mammaries: got.   Wide hips and big brunette hair: check, check.  "Objectified": will always be.   Men whistle as I trot by: yes, yes.   

So why do I think about the meaning of life? Why do I want to campaign to get the dwarf planet Pluto back into our solar system?  Ahhhhh....something is wrong!!!

This thread was about a swimsuit magazine.  Women on magazine covers sell.  That much I know.  I only look at magazines with men on the cover.  There are things I do not understand.  Body image is a part of human culture.  In the last 100 years, the ideal feminine body has become robotic.  I keep thinking this: if women have to look like women, then what is a woman (the reality or the fantasy)?  What kind of person is really on the cover of that swimsuit magazine: no person, it's just art (remember, the photos are edited too).  

I go back to evolutionary biology on this, Monique.  Competition.  You'd feel competitive with men and I'd feel competitive with women.  Don't you think that some people, crossdreamers, are the creatures with the stronger evolutionary mechanism to go into the other gender as a way to stand out, rather than blend in?  The unicorns are going to get the attention (sometimes ostracized and hunted down, but they will get the attention).  Isn't this what it's about?  There is an evolutionary purpose to being a gender trickster. 

Unicorns in a dragshow? Trickster unicorns acting flamboyant? While it's an interesting thought - if I got it right - all I can say is, it doesn't apply to me (sorry!). On the contrary, part of the reason why I want to become a (gorgeous) woman is precisely because I want to escape competition. In fact, I'd like to kill it altogether. I want love and ecstasy on tap, anytime and everywhere I need it. Everybody should have that, so everyone deserves being equally super beautiful, beloved and affirmed, not least in their lustful sinfulness and for their wicked minds. While we are competing - for instance me being forced into competition with other men - I don't feel we are actually living, and the fact that this world works by competion as one of its fundamental princples, is only additional testament to it being the imperfect handiwork of a bumbling Demiurge on a bad day, suffering a bad temper and a hangover.

"I keep thinking this: if women have to look like women, then what is a woman (the reality or the fantasy)?"

I'd say, the woman is the fantasy (for she is an ideal), while "the reality" is just to be female. smiley: laugh

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Mar 19 17 6:42 PM. Edited 6 times.

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

Mar 19 17 7:19 PM

Monique wrote:
Unicorns in a dragshow? Trickster unicorns acting flamboyant? While it's an interesting thought - if I got it right - all I can say is, it doesn't apply to me (sorry!). On the contrary, part of the reason why I want to become a (gorgeous) woman is precisely because I want to escape competition. In fact, I'd like to kill it altogether. I want love and ecstasy on tap, anytime and everywhere I need it. Everybody should have that, so everyone deserves being equally super beautiful, beloved and affirmed, not least in their lustful sinfulness and for their wicked minds. While we are competing - for instance me being forced into competition with other men - I don't feel we are actually living, and the fact that this world works by competion as one of its fundamental princples, is only additional testament to it being the imperfect handiwork of a bumbling Demiurge on a bad day, suffering a bad temper and a hangover.

"I keep thinking this: if women have to look like women, then what is a woman (the reality or the fantasy)?"

I'd say, the woman is the fantasy (for she is an ideal), while "the reality" is just to be female. image

 
That's the point I'm making and you proved me right! You DID escape competition, at least in your head.  By becoming a model of the ideal other gender, you DIDN'T have to compete with your own gender: men.  You imagined the best of a comfortable space, in this case: women (I hate to be reminded of "safe space" - makes me think of college kids and ....and......rrrrrrrrr......that rainbow commmuni.....rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!)

Competition is what you make of it: a lot, a little.  Over-achieving a bit, aren't we, minister's son? image I know much about over-achieving.  

Last Edited By: lal2828 Mar 19 17 7:43 PM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Apr 5 17 5:54 AM

lal2828 wrote:
Monique wrote:
Unicorns in a dragshow? Trickster unicorns acting flamboyant? While it's an interesting thought - if I got it right - all I can say is, it doesn't apply to me (sorry!). On the contrary, part of the reason why I want to become a (gorgeous) woman is precisely because I want to escape competition. In fact, I'd like to kill it altogether. I want love and ecstasy on tap, anytime and everywhere I need it. Everybody should have that, so everyone deserves being equally super beautiful, beloved and affirmed, not least in their lustful sinfulness and for their wicked minds. While we are competing - for instance me being forced into competition with other men - I don't feel we are actually living, and the fact that this world works by competion as one of its fundamental princples, is only additional testament to it being the imperfect handiwork of a bumbling Demiurge on a bad day, suffering a bad temper and a hangover.

"I keep thinking this: if women have to look like women, then what is a woman (the reality or the fantasy)?"

I'd say, the woman is the fantasy (for she is an ideal), while "the reality" is just to be female. image

 
That's the point I'm making and you proved me right! You DID escape competition, at least in your head.  By becoming a model of the ideal other gender, you DIDN'T have to compete with your own gender: men.  You imagined the best of a comfortable space, in this case: women (I hate to be reminded of "safe space" - makes me think of college kids and ....and......rrrrrrrrr......that rainbow commmuni.....rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!)

Competition is what you make of it: a lot, a little.  Over-achieving a bit, aren't we, minister's son? image I know much about over-achieving.  

Gee, in that case, you found me out! Hm, instead of "safe space", how about sheltered existence? Mulling over the various crossdreaming scenarios I like to imagine, some which aren't really fit for elaboration on the internet, that sure is a common denominator if I do some honest introspection. And if someone thinks the life of a woman should be more "adventurous", "self-assertive", "creative" or what not, and thus fear for my long-term mental health in paradise, or me as Monique being just the caricature of a woman, please let me just assure you that I have a huge tolerance for boredom. I'll be alright.

I'd love the lifestyle of a turn of the century bourgeois lady as a sort of existential baseline for instance, and then go on from there... and twist it. smiley: wink In fact, boredom, like Stefan Zweig implicitely lays it out in The World of Yesterday, can be a good thing. In combination with a near suffocating sense of jade and satin padded security, it doubtless fuels the fires of lust and indulgence...

No surprise then, I feel quite a congruency with this time and place:


Over-achieving? Not really, I think... You could probably teach me a thing or two. It would be useful, for in contrast to a certain Sino-American beauty, I am the original lazy bum. smiley: laugh Yet on the other hand, if you were talking about it in terms of the demands you once put on yourself instigating such fear of failure that it could only lead to procrastination, terrified petrification ...and failure, I already know everything there is to know about over-achievement. Nowadays, I happily consider those periods of my life to be over. At last.

By the way, are you a pedantic perfectionist? I know I am.


Love,
Monique

"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me

Last Edited By: Monique Apr 5 17 6:09 AM. Edited 4 times.

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help